Inconsistent sighting

[chrissmall147]

Ok lets just leave it at that then. Apologies for dissing you but felt you were dissing me when you said I forget about basic fundamentals when teaching beginners as I know that I drum it in to them as its so important for them to know and to remember it aswell. Peace mate

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

You said 'Terry has stated that everyone has the ability to see the line of aim naturally and that most problems arise from not being able to deliver the cue straight, I agree with this for players that have good natural hand/eye co-ordination.'

Please do not confuse what I said or understand it incorrectly. There is no dominant or preferred eye in play when standing behind the shot and AIMING. Where this theory comes in is when a player is SIGHTING along the cue, not when he's standing behind the shot as he is looking at the shot with both eyes on the line and the line centered between the eyes. Would anyone drive a car with his head turned so his preferred eye would be leading? Also, what about archers? They can't get the arrow directly under their preferred eye but still manage to sight the shot.

I do not agree with the preferred eye theory and believe those pros you have sited have their set-up that way not because of their preferred eye but because that's the way they learned how to play and now their set-up towards one eye or another is natural to their set-up.

In my own case, I cue centre chin but turn my head slightly to the right. As a right handed player this does bring the cue a little more towards my preferred left eye however that is not the reason I do it. In looking at head on shots of myself from the 80's I had my head square to the shot and in those days my stronger and preferred eye was my right eye, but eye surgery changed that.

The only reason I turn my head is it's easier on the lower neck and if I try and square my head to the shot my lower neck develops a strain.

Given practice and a proper feedback technique a player can sight the ball accurately with his head square on and not favouring either eye and the bonus is because his eyes are at their widest apart when square on he gets the best binocular vision and depth perception when sighting. This is also the way all players AIM, with their head square on so the question becomes if you AIM that way then why not SIGHT the identical way, as that would make sense to me.

If, like Joe Davis, a player has very poor vision in one eye and can't correct it with glasses or contact lenses or even Lasik surgery then I believe like Joe Davis they should cue under their good eye since he was virtually blind in his right eye and chose not to correct it with glasses as his brother Fred did.

I don't know if Jamie Jones has a very poor and uncorrected eye but I doubt it and if this is so there is no logical reason why his cue is so far over other than he learned to play that way plus it gives him a very tight channel to run the cue through and keep it straighter. He may have developed this style as a youngster and I don't believe it has anything to do with his preferred eye.

Also, I've never had the chance to coach a pro and ask them why the cue is not centre chin nor have I ever been able to ask say Neil Robertson or Ronnie why they don't cue centre chin, but we have a good ex-pro here in Chris who gives some logical reasons for cueing centre chin and I think those reasons are valid.

Terry

[Sidd]

vmax:

I do not agree with the preferred eye theory and believe those pros you have sited have their set-up that way not because of their preferred eye but because that's the way they learned how to play and now their set-up towards one eye or another is natural to their set-up.

In my own case, I cue centre chin but turn my head slightly to the right. As a right handed player this does bring the cue a little more towards my preferred left eye however that is not the reason I do it. In looking at head on shots of myself from the 80's I had my head square to the shot and in those days my stronger and preferred eye was my right eye, but eye surgery changed that.

Terry

Very well stated and elaborated as usual Terry.

What I can add to this is that when I learnt about the preferred eye theory through a snooker coaching handbook long ago I tried to manage playing that way. I did not really know how to go about it. As a lefty having left master eye the easiest was to play left of chin while down but that seemed so odd to me that I could not do it. It really felt weird. So all I could do was to change from my boxers to square on. I also did it cuz most pros or shall I say all pros play square on. So with square on I felt more relaxed and thought I was favouring my left eye as well. What I did not know at that time was that being a tall person having square on I had to go down by bending my bridge arm at an angle without which I could not go to the address position. While doing so I was not fully on the table and my cue remained three to four inches above the bed of the table. It was only until recently I found out through your advice and Vmax's suggestions and others comments what was wrong.... !!! Hence forgetting about the master eye and going back to boxers helped me a lot in getting back on track to improvement.

the reason for stating this here is only to help those who tinker so much about the master eye. Master eye might have its advantages but only if you can have a natural set up favouring master eye without ruining anything else like I did... I still play centre chin and take all sorts of pots with ease...!

[Sidd]

My personal opinion on incorrect sighting:

The whole issue lies a the point in between aiming and sighting guys. Trust me.
When you aim you have to do that with nose or centre of eyes so nose is the best point of reference. Now the real problem where care has to be taken is while moving in to the shot as you might think you are getting down on the correct chosen line but sometimes you get down and do not lock your eyes/nose on the point of contact on the OB and hence get down incorrect and then sight wrong and miss.

Consider the 'playing with eyes closed' practice. If master eye has to do so much then how can a person pot with his eyes closed ????????? he can only do so if he has moved in to the shot and gone down in the address being affirmatively on the line.

If you are down and miss and think you sighted wrong I would still insist that while moving down on the line of aim you moved and went down on the incorrect line.

[throtts]

You beat me to it, Sidd.

This is exactly what I am working on at the moment. I use to walk ( not doing handstands, haha ) in to the address position but I am now putting myself more on top of the shot, so I stance straight away on the line of aim.

Anyway, I shall continue my experiments and report back...

[alabadi]

this is what I believed every time I missed the easier shots that I must either be sighting it wrong or not getting down on the shot to deliver the cue on that line.

I have as I mentioned in previous posts booked some continuous coaching, 1 hour every two weeks to get some consistency and to build on the skills I have required to take me to the next level.
so yesterday was my second coaching session, the coach at the minute is doing things with me which are different to previous coaches and not what I expected. he is not a believer in lots of technology and analysis to coach he feels it is too technical some times and many over complicate things. he is an ex pro so he understands what it takes to be a good player and I am confident that what he is trying to do with me if I stick to it will make me a more accomplished player.

he is almost like the Mr Miyagi of snooker coaching. all I was doing yesterday was potting different balls from the same position using different heights and power. I kept questioning when missing that I was not delivering the cue correctly, he told me that on every shot I took the OB went where I aimed, so his method was just make a slight adjustment, cueing was fine and eventually after missing a few I could pot more accurately.

there was a situation where he lined up a half ball pot on the blue from the green side from below the blue so the cueball goes towards the top cushion. he got me to roll it in and then made me repeat the pot lower an lower and unknown to me he was setting up a few reds and the pink on its spot so eventually I was potting the blue and breaking up the pack.

I told him so many times in matches I miss this shot , either miss the pack or the pot. he said if I set this up and said pot the blue and break the pack I would have missed and that's what he is trying to drill in to me. and that is not to over think things. he went on to say 80-90% of snooker is done standing up, the power the height, where you want the cueball to go...etc. once down on the shot there should be no thinking just deliver. he said if you don't give your brain all that information before you get down it will not know what to do, so then you end up doubting yourself am I lined up correct have I got the correct height to send the cueball where I want and therefore introduce conflict which inevitably creates movement and snatchy cueing and of course you miss.

throughout the session we practiced lining up shots getting down and cueing smooth, I found as I was introducing more power into the shot the more misses, so all we did was slow things down and build up again.

so for me I have removed this doubt that I cannot deliver the cue to send the cueball to the correct contact point, my issue is getting down on the line to deliver the cue to that point. but I need to get into my head all the decisions to be made standing and before I get down.

Alabbadi

PS: I would add one thing he moved my bridge closer to the shot which meant on follow through as I dropped my elbow the cue had more room before the tip raised which meant the tip kept longer on the selected spot on the cueball to give the correct reaction

[throtts]

he went on to say 80-90% of snooker is done standing up, the power the height, where you want the cueball to go...etc. once down on the shot there should be no thinking just deliver. he said if you don't give your brain all that information before you get down it will not know what to do, so then you end up doubting yourself am I lined up correct have I got the correct height to send the cueball where I want and therefore introduce conflict which inevitably creates movement and snatchy cueing and of course you miss.



Alabbadi

This is snooker in a nut shell, end of. I touched on how important the aiming / standing up stage is..

[topcoach147max]

Hi Guys,
Im reading all the advice been handed out on this issue. So here is mine.!!
1. go get an eye test at your local opticians,this will put to bed left or right eye dominance,you must do this now before you can change anything !! switching sighting eyes is very inconsistant.
2.when you know you dominat eye ,stick to it .!on all shots.....
3. go visit a coach for a sighting and cue ball address position lesson.

To Me it sounds like your problem is in your line of aim,somewhere in the walk in phase ,dropping down phase,or cue delivery phase of the shot you are going off line.
Also it could be your body position is not the same on the left hand side of the table than it is on the right,every player is more comfortable on a particular side of the table,and the other is more akward (especially for high blacks) as the side rail is in the way,this could cause you not to find the centre of the cue ball at the address positition(unwanted side),as easy as you can for your normal adrress and your not making the adjustment.
Im left handed , so the left side of the table is harder for me ,I cant stand properly,head position is different,balance is affected,so obviuosly with all this happening the chances of the cue going off line is increased. set up a routine ,10 half ball,high black pots from both sides of the table,see if you can feel any differences.

Hope this helps !!

[chrissmall147]

hi terry,

what a great explanation of aiming and sighting and this is what i've been trying to say about the centre of the chin. Well done Terry you could not have put it any better mate.

cheers chris

[alabadi]

Hi Guys,
Im reading all the advice been handed out on this issue. So here is mine.!!
1. go get an eye test at your local opticians,this will put to bed left or right eye dominance,you must do this now before you can change anything !! switching sighting eyes is very inconsistant.
2.when you know you dominat eye ,stick to it .!on all shots.....
3. go visit a coach for a sighting and cue ball address position lesson.

to be honest, I don't think cueing under the dominant eye thing should be consciously made. I messed around with this for nearly a year or so, I did all the tests to confirm what I always know and that is I have a dominant/stronger left eye.

I then in the pursuit of getting better at potting spent so much time trying to cue under it in the belief that this is what I needed to make me see the contact point on the OB better , I found it so uncomfortable that I couldn't pot accurately. trying to twist my body to allow my left eye to be over the cue created so much strain on my neck and upper body I had to abandon it. I now cue more or less centre chin slightly to the right if I'm honest , I probably tilt my head slightly to the right but not consciously, I find this is the more comfortable and more accurate.

as Terry said sighting is done with both eyes not one, so the best position is centre chin for most of us unless severely visually impaired in one eye, a slight tilt of the head only allows the eyes to focus and align the vision to see the line of aim better.

Alabbadi

[topcoach147max]

Perharps I wasnt clear in my advice. keeping the head still on walk in and centred is what i suggested, slowly dropping down on the line of aim,then an unconsious tilt of the head while on the shot,to get the dominant eye in the line of aim. you cannot use your two eyes to focus on an object,the more dominant eye will always focus more than the other no matter how slight. (would you shoot a bird out of the sky with your two eyes open?) Thats why we love the game, eveyone is different,you apply the basic methods and find a way that works for you ......

[Terry Davidson]

topcoach:

The example you give regarding shooting a bird might not be an accurate comparison as you are using one eye to line up the sights on the rifle barrel with the target also in view whereas in snooker we don't have the TWO sights, just the one with the ferrule.

I agree the brain will always use one eye or the other for it's primary image and the info from the other eye for depth perception through binocular vision. In order to get the best depth information the eyes should be as far apart as they can be and hopefully an equal distance on each side of the line of aim.

I don't think it's necessary to have the cue more under the dominant eye and I believe this is a faulty theory which originally came from Joe Davis as he cued directly under his left eye and as 'The Father of Snooker' a lot of players followed his advice even though he also stated he was virtually blind in his right eye.

To get the best visual image of a pot it makes sense to me to have the eyes in a position in relation to the cue where the player will get the best image and that would be centre chin with the eyes square to the line of aim.

Terry

[alabadi]

(would you shoot a bird out of the sky with your two eyes open?) Thats why we love the game, eveyone is different,you apply the basic methods and find a way that works for you ......

I think shooting is different because the gun is pointing directly at the target therefore you have to close one eye as the sight is directly on the barrel of the gun.

in snooker the cue is not pointing at the intended target bar one situation only and that is on dead straight shots, it is merely steering an object to contact another object. so the sight line and the aim line are different. this is why we need both eyes for the brain to judge the depth and angle to allow us to move to cueball to the correct contact point.

I agree that always we will have a stronger eye, however it doesn't mean we are only sighting with it, the brain will use it against the other eye to create an balanced view/image of what we are looking at.

Alabbadi

PS: just seen Terry's post...lol , its basically the same thing what he said

[topcoach147max]

Yes!

Yes I understand both of your replies. They both have value and are proven successful , as does my theory. So as Coaches are we not obliged to show an demonstrate all 3 methods of sighting(or more )?? and let the student find the one that works best for him.Just because one method worked for you as a player,you cant just teach that way ,we have a responsbility to show all methods in all aspects of the game. This is how I coach ,I show all methods and let them choose.My job as a coach is to give the player "a bag of tools" and let him look in the bag and learn what tools give him the best results. Please tell me you dont just coach "your way" and that you give the player alternatives for every problem he faces??

[itsnoteasy]

Can you have inconsistent sighting? , sighting is only checking that all is ok, and locking eyes on the point. Inconsistent aiming certainly and this may lead you to think its your sighting that's wrong, but it's your chosen line of aim, or deviating off it at some point that's wrong, once down on the shot sighting just verifies all that's gone before, and all that's gone before is where the big mistakes happen.