Another sighting/dominant eye question

[ebonynivory]

I've considered responding to this thread about 5 times now and backed out not wanting to start an argument with anyone of the several 'forgetaboutit and play' brigade...

But seriously I can't understand the non objective and dismissive comments being made. Do we not play a game based on HAND/EYE coordination amongst other important aspects such as feet positioning, weight distribution etc? If this is true then to say don't worry about your eyes seems rather ridiculous. We spend time learning our grip and finding what works for us, we spend time learning our feet positioning and finding what works for us, we spend time learning our weight distribution and finding what works for us... but according to some here we should just not be concerned about our eyes????

Now maybe I'm biased due to my recent experience and maybe my circumstance is unusual - eyesight being as unique to each of us as much as our weight distribution, arm length, hand size, etc - but had I not got to the point of utter frustration with my inconsistent game, and had I not happened across some online info about eye dominance, and had I not experimented and found where my sighting issue was based, I would still be in the throws of my utter frustration about my inconsistent game.

So comments like 'just put your head down and play the game' seem pretty out of line to me and maybe will seem the same to anyone else who is in the throws of frustration and want to learn how to improve and find what works for them. Personally I find that having frustration in my head is way worse for my game than learning and finding what works for me.

To add a little more insight into my particular situation I am now 41 years old, I have come back to the game after about 20 years of not owning a table. In my younger days I played well and was consistent having found a comfortable grip, stance and action. Now 20 years later I come back to the game with my original grip, stance and action but now I'm inconsistent. So what has changed? 20 years of working in the computer and IT industry slowly developing worse and worse eyesight... and a verifiable increase in dominance in my right eye.

Steve wrote, 'Why they do this I don't know but I have the feeling that they are keeping the cue centre chin and using a certain stance and head position because they believe it to be the correct way to play'

This is exactly why I was persisting to the point of frustration because this is the way I used to play and surely it will improve and I will get back to my old consistency... I wonder how long I would have had to continue in that frustration before 'everything just worked itself out and the brain made the necessary adjustments in a game improved by confidence????

I'm glad I found the info and suggestions I needed to once again fall in love with this game... It took me two days to look into all this, another two days of putting Steves advice into practise and I now have my confidence back, my consistency is on the improve, my stance feels very natural and easy and I'm loving running drills and working on my positional play I can't wait for out for friends to come over so I can put all of this into practise in a game or 20.

Sure beats being consumed with not understanding why I couldn't seem to get the angles right like I used too. But of course, your experience may differ from mine...

Thanks Steve.

Cheers,
Mick

...and I think this is the point! You obviously have put a lot of time and effort in the game A) to enjoy it and B) gain more consistency. I have been on this journey myself, dominant eye, stance, grip et al. As you say once you find what works for you then great, only speaking from my own experience as I completely destroyed my game with too many technicalities to the point I just didn't enjoy the game. It's only when I stripped back my game to the basics, then it all sort of made sense and started to enjoy it again! Only an opinion of course.

[alabadi]

for me i have always been sure that i either didn't sight correctly or when down wasn't on the line correctly hence my failed attempts to get any consistency.

i am a right handed player with left eye dominance and after posting on a previous thread i came across the advice from Steve of tilting the head to favour the dominant eye, this point in particular has made such a difference in how i see the contact point, i seem to see it much clearer and when down i have no conflict that i am wrong.

i use to have so much conflict of what i was seeing was wrong, i kept having to get up all the time and on occasions was forcing myself to accept it, what i didn't realise was i was selecting the correct contact point when standing however when down on the shot my stance head position didin't allow my dominant eye to sight the shot, so my brain and eyes were at conflict and this introduced movement and ultimately inconsistency in my potting.

now with the head tilt to the right bringing my left eye closer to the line of aim i have no conflict and can concentrate on the contact point. it has brought me back to basics big time.

i am still getting use to this because my stance had to change too to allow this change i had to turn my right foot 45 degrees to the right. i am hoping that improvement will come soon once all this becomes natural to me.

Alabbadi

[vmax4steve]

Just get down, play and enjoy the game. Too many technicalities such as dominant eye, grip, cocked wrist etc will ruin your game if these are in your head.

The dominant eye is not a mere technicality. It's the very basics of addressing the cue ball, and everyone does this with one eye only. The cue may be centre chin with some players but actually only one eye is used to address the cue ball and the stance and/or head position will be slightly off to one side of the shot or the other to favour this eye and address the cue ball correctly.
If you have an ultra dominant eye due to an unbalance in visual clarity between your two eyes and don't stand or position your head in such a way to favour it then you will not be able to line up the shot correctly and standing where the coach has told you to with the cue centre chin and head square on to the shot will give you a clear view of the shot but will not put you in the correct place to address the cue ball and everything will feel wrong when you are down in your stance because you will be looking at the contact point of the object ball with your cue pointing elsewhere.

Most peoples eyesight changes over time, see the two pictures of Jimmy White below, when young it looks as though he cued more centre chin even though left eye dominant, but now the cue is directly over his left eye. It's a shame that the picture of his younger self isn't head on but the cue position does look different to me.

[vmax4steve]

I've considered responding to this thread about 5 times now and backed out not wanting to start an argument with anyone of the several 'forgetaboutit and play' brigade...

But seriously I can't understand the non objective and dismissive comments being made. Do we not play a game based on HAND/EYE coordination amongst other important aspects such as feet positioning, weight distribution etc? If this is true then to say don't worry about your eyes seems rather ridiculous. We spend time learning our grip and finding what works for us, we spend time learning our feet positioning and finding what works for us, we spend time learning our weight distribution and finding what works for us... but according to some here we should just not be concerned about our eyes????

I've been banging this drum for a couple of years now on these coaching threads, everything starts with the eyes and what you are looking at, everything ends with the eyes and what you are looking at and all things in between are checked by the eyes and what you are looking at.

Any advice that is given that doesn't state what you should be looking at when taking that advice is counterproductive and will not improve you as a player.
As Mick states it's a game of hand/eye co-ordination first and foremost.

[ebonynivory]

The dominant eye is not a mere technicality. It's the very basics of addressing the cue ball, and everyone does this with one eye only. The cue may be centre chin with some players but actually only one eye is used to address the cue ball and the stance and/or head position will be slightly off to one side of the shot or the other to favour this eye and address the cue ball correctly.
If you have an ultra dominant eye due to an unbalance in visual clarity between your two eyes and don't stand or position your head in such a way to favour it then you will not be able to line up the shot correctly and standing where the coach has told you to with the cue centre chin and head square on to the shot will give you a clear view of the shot but will not put you in the correct place to address the cue ball and everything will feel wrong when you are down in your stance because you will be looking at the contact point of the object ball with your cue pointing elsewhere.

Most peoples eyesight changes over time, see the two pictures of Jimmy White below, when young it looks as though he cued more centre chin even though left eye dominant, but now the cue is directly over his left eye. It's a shame that the picture of his younger self isn't head on but the cue position does look different to me.

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The two attached photos do appear that Jimmy's eyesight has changed over time. It would be interesting to know if he recognised the change and if he made the conscious dominant eye addressing of the ball? Maybe he just got on with it, who's to know? I think anyone who is looking to improve have all embraced a idea or technique which has worked for us one day and hasn't the next. As mentioned before some things will work and some won't. J6UK mentioned coaching. A great idea and thoroughly recommended if you have tried everything to improve/get your game back on track.

[itsnoteasy]

Please forgive me if I get this all wrong, but I don't understand why you have to do all this head movement, the brain is a marvellous thing and should work out naturally the share of vision from each eye(don't know a better way of putting it) shouldn't it?, we see with binocular vision it gives us our depth of field and precise location of an object, when I pick something small up I don't tilt my head or move my body around, I look square at it and my brain works it out,and guides my hand to the exact point, when I drop down on the shot my brain will find the centre of the cue ball and I need both eyes not one to pin point the potting point on the object ball, even if you run the cue under one eye you are using two for the shot aren't you? I am not good enough to say if this is right or wrong and what works for one won't work for all, but good luck to Mick and Alabadi, hope what ever you do eventually works for you.
I tried most of this with some short term benefit but it soon went, maybe I didn't give it long enough would be interesting to keep track of you guys and see what the long term results are ,again good luck with it all.

[vmax4steve]

Please forgive me if I get this all wrong, but I don't understand why you have to do all this head movement, the brain is a marvellous thing and should work out naturally the share of vision from each eye(don't know a better way of putting it) shouldn't it?, we see with binocular vision it gives us our depth of field and precise location of an object, when I pick something small up I don't tilt my head or move my body around, I look square at it and my brain works it out,and guides my hand to the exact point, when I drop down on the shot my brain will find the centre of the cue ball and I need both eyes not one to pin point the potting point on the object ball, even if you run the cue under one eye you are using two for the shot aren't you? I am not good enough to say if this is right or wrong and what works for one won't work for all, but good luck to Mick and Alabadi, hope what ever you do eventually works for you.
I tried most of this with some short term benefit but it soon went, maybe I didn't give it long enough would be interesting to keep track of you guys and see what the long term results are ,again good luck with it all.

What you are saying is true, the brain works it all out for you, but what if for some reason it doesn't ?
Is that the reason why some people have great hand/eye co-ordination and others do not ?
And you have failed to pick up on my point that the brain chooses one eye only to address the cue ball even though both are used for depth perception, working out angles and seeing the shot as a whole.

Try closing one eye then the other when you are down in your stance and you will confirm this to yourself.

All I am saying is that if your natural stance is to favour your dominant eye with either a square or boxer stance or turn of the head, then why not stand in that position when stood up behind the shot before getting down to ensure you are sighting the shot the same when down as standing up, minimising the chances of putting the cue on the wrong line of aim.

If sighting isn't an issue for you then forget about it, but if it is give this a try.

[vmax4steve]

The two attached photos do appear that Jimmy's eyesight has changed over time. It would be interesting to know if he recognised the change and if he made the conscious dominant eye addressing of the ball? Maybe he just got on with it, who's to know?

Maybe he has no idea and is simply cueing this way due to his body shape being bigger now that he's older. Maybe he needs corrective vision and hasn't addressed it, maybe this different cue position under his chin is why he plays so badly these days compared to his heyday, maybe the shot he took in the photo was one he missed and this was the reason he missed it,
like you said who knows ?

[itsnoteasy]

What you are saying is true, the brian works it all out for you, but what if for some reason it doesn't ?
Is that the reason why some people have great hand/eye co-ordination and others do not ?
And you have failed to pick up on my point that the brain chooses one eye only to address the cue ball even though both are used for depth perception, working out angles and seeing the shot as a whole.

Try closing one eye then the other when you are down in your stance and you will confirm this to yourself.

All I am saying is that if your natural stance is to favour your dominant eye with either a square or boxer stance or turn of the head, then why not stand in that position when stood up behind the shot before getting down to ensure you are sighting the shot the same when down as standing up, minimising the chances of putting the cue on the wrong line of aim.

If sighting isn't an issue for you then forget about it, but if it is give this a try.

Ah I get what you are saying now, yes I agree with it, if that's what is natural to you then don't fight it, it's probably more important to be comfortable and stable than fight it.
I just trust my brain to put my hand on the table in the middle of the cue ball, I kind of have to as I don't look at the cue ball until my bridge hand is on the table, and it's to late to alter it then, unless I stand up and do it all again.When I done Terry's test of cueing to the end position pointing at the edge of the leather of the pocket then closing one eye then the other my view didn't change, but when I do the finger test it shows up as big left eye dominant, so I chose to believe the cueing drill as to me that seemed more likely to be true.
I wonder if its more likely people are wandering off line on the way in or down,more than sighting wrong when down but that could be to do with your eyesight while aiming as you say, remaining locked on , and straight on the way down is a big thing and if you don't see this bit right it makes the game very difficult .

[nrage]

So.. I noticed something yesterday which has bearing on this conversation.

Some people have been saying that the brain chooses one eye, over the other to see the line of aim, or line up the cue etc. I think this may be wrong, or perhaps is not be the case for everyone.. and I have some evidence to share.

I was lying on the couch last night, looking out the window. We have a large window in 3 segments, the separator between segments is 1-2 inches wide (typical UK double glazed Alu window fitting). Out the window, immediately to the right of the separator I could see a telephone pole, immediately to the left a chimney. This is with both eyes open. If I closed my right eye, the pole was still visible, but the chimney was now obscured by the separator. Likewise if I closed my left eye, the chimney was visible but the pole was obscured.

So, with both eyes open the image I was "seeing" in my brain included information from both eyes. My brain had created a clever amalgamation of information from 2 sources into a single coherent whole. I would be interested to hear from anyone else trying something similar, and whether they see the same thing or not.

Here is another example, this time of the brain doing a bad job at representing reality. Place your index finger tips together and lift them up to about 1-2 inches in front of the bridge of your nose. Now, focus on something past them and then move your fingers slightly apart. What you should see is your two finger tips and between them a floating finger made up of the finger tips of each finger overlapped.

The take-away point from all this is that what you see with your eyes/brain may not in fact be reality, you can be deceived. The only way to be certain is to have one or more outside observers to verify what you see matches what they see, and therefore reality (lets not dive into philosophy here about the nature of reality).

I have always been right eye dominant according to the tests but I think my vision is actually fairly balanced. I say this because in the hold up a finger and cover a distant object test I can 'see' 2 silhouette's of my finger, one slightly more distinct than the other. But, I can concentrate on the less distinct image I can make it the more distinct image and the result, left eye dominant. It does require that I concentrate, which suggests my right eye is more naturally preferred in this test.

However, if I try to cue center chin or to the right of my nose it all goes horribly wrong. The best position for me is, and has always been just to the left of my nose. If my brain were selecting only the image from the right eye to line this up, then it's making life hard for itself, right?

Perhaps I have simply trained my brain to this position, but I don't recall struggling with cue sports at the beginning, in fact I was typically the best out of my mates right from the word go. So, perhaps this position, slightly to the left was trained in by something else, perhaps another sport I played as a youngster, or perhaps this is simply a natural/inbuilt result of how my brain works, who knows.

Ultimately I do not think my brain is selecting to use only the information from my dominant right eye to line up shots, I think it uses both eyes and combines the information to form the picture I see.

I think it uses the information from each eye to confirm/reinforce something is on a given line, and when I feel it's not on line, despite it looking to be on line, perhaps this is due to information from one eye conflicting with the other, the brain has selected one for the picture I see, but I am subconsciously aware of the other information and this makes me uneasy.

Just some more food for thought..

[vmax4steve]

So.. I noticed something yesterday which has bearing on this conversation.

Some people have been saying that the brain chooses one eye, over the other to see the line of aim, or line up the cue etc. I think this may be wrong, or perhaps is not be the case for everyone.. and I have some evidence to share.

You are right in that this is not the case for everyone, and it's these that do not play to a high standard. Your evidence however is simply a statement of how the brain deciphers information that it recieves from both eyes.

I have always been right eye dominant according to the tests but I think my vision is actually fairly balanced. I say this because in the hold up a finger and cover a distant object test I can 'see' 2 silhouette's of my finger, one slightly more distinct than the other. But, I can concentrate on the less distinct image I can make it the more distinct image and the result, left eye dominant. It does require that I concentrate, which suggests my right eye is more naturally preferred in this test.

Which eye shows the tip of the cue to be centre cue ball when in the address position ? that is your dominant eye. If neither then you have a sighting problem.

However, if I try to cue center chin or to the right of my nose it all goes horribly wrong. The best position for me is, and has always been just to the left of my nose. If my brain were selecting only the image from the right eye to line this up, then it's making life hard for itself, right?

This is poor hand/eye co-ordination in action.

Perhaps I have simply trained my brain to this position, but I don't recall struggling with cue sports at the beginning, in fact I was typically the best out of my mates right from the word go. So, perhaps this position, slightly to the left was trained in by something else, perhaps another sport I played as a youngster, or perhaps this is simply a natural/inbuilt result of how my brain works, who knows.
Ultimately I do not think my brain is selecting to use only the information from my dominant right eye to line up shots, I think it uses both eyes and combines the information to form the picture I see.

You may finally be on to something there

I think it uses the information from each eye to confirm/reinforce something is on a given line, and when I feel it's not on line, despite it looking to be on line, perhaps this is due to information from one eye conflicting with the other, the brain has selected one for the picture I see, but I am subconsciously aware of the other information and this makes me uneasy.

This is a perfect example of poor hand/eye co-ordination as your cue is too close to your submissive eye, which means you need to deliberately seek out your dominant eye for lining up the shot and addressing the cue ball, by either turning the head or body slightly to your submissive side to put the cue nearer to or under your dominant eye both when stood up behind the shot to help you sight better and also when down in the stance.

For years now nrage you have been stating that your lack of progress is simply due to lack of practise, yet the quotes and replies I have highlighted in red tell me that you do indeed have a sighting issue and you need to work on it.
Coaching is all well and good but if a coach isn't aware of what you are looking at and any conflict over what you are seeing he won't be able to help you as this sighting issue is probably the cause of all your snooker woes, as you said before your cue action has been noted by many to be OK, you simply don't see the shot very well

[nrage]

For years now nrage you have been stating that your lack of progress is simply due to lack of practise, yet the quotes and replies I have highlighted in red tell me that you do indeed have a sighting issue and you need to work on it.

Thanks for trying to help but you're totally wrong about this.

I have already tested the various sighting positions scientifically and repeatedly - by recording my results over time so as to rule out temporary effects like "having a good/bad day".

The current position of my head relative to cue is optimal for me, in this position what I see is what is actually there. When the cue looks on line, it is on line, when the tip looks center ball it is center ball, etc.

When I attempted to cue center chin, as recommended by Nic and others I did not see the shot correctly, likewise trying to cue toward my right eye. I went as far as to place the cue under my right eye directly, and also by turning my head (as Terry advocates).

No other position was as consistently and measurably "correct" as my current position.

p.s. This idea you have that I have bad hand-eye coordination is a fiction, I have no idea what you're basing it on but it's patently false. My hand-eye coordination is above average, though not as good as some people I know.

For example I played 1st 11 cricket (and football) at high school, and football to a reasonable standard following that until my knee injury. I played indoor cricket, indoor football, volleyball, hockey and practiced martial arts. I juggle, play guitar and drums, work as a software engineer and play computer games as a hobby. All of this requires decent hand-eye coordination, and it's never been an issue. In addition my reaction times are consistently well above average in all the tests I've tried. I am naturally good at sports and other physical activity. Whatever image you have of me in your head, it's wrong.

The difference, for me, with snooker is that I came to the game much later than all the others, and I don't get enough practice. Compared to cricket and football, which I was playing for hours every day for years of my life, it is like I have barely even picked up the cue. Of course, that doesn't stop me enjoying the time I do get to play, or enjoying the challenge of trying to improve despite the odds being stacked against me somewhat.

[Sidd]

Although I am no authority on anything regarding sighting / dominant eye thing however through my observations and experiences and even experiments; here is what I can furhter comment on this:

1. For all of you out there thinking / considering about the dominant eye and whether to cue under it; firstly of all please do the test Terry advocates as I have found that test out to be much better than pointing at the chalk etc as it gives you the exact situation. I personally did that test and found out that yes I have a left eye master eye however my brain is already and automatically using the vision from my left eye so I do not need to change my set up. Even if I did, it will not give me any considerable advantage (perhaps those that wobble might start going in nothing more than that maybe). Anyway, the brain uses image from the master eye or shall we say prefers that image and hence cueing under that eye more promises that the sight improves given that you are helping or assisting your brain in getting closer to the master eye in order to captures the better image. Good enough; however, this goes for people who have one eye weaker than the other due to a surgery, natural causes (pretty weak eye-sight and so on) etc if that is the case yes you have to do the master eye favouring setup like it or not... if not then forget about it. Do you have this or not- nest method- Terry's method; try it out and know for certain whether you need this or not.

2. Nrage: well dear you do have a point and it is correct that the brain uses two halves of images and produces them as one. If that was not required then my dear friend God would have blessed us with only one eye and not two as they say there is nothing useless in nature then that means if we have two eyes then there is a reason to it. We usu both eyes for the complete vision. Consider this: look at something on the wall with both eyes and without moving the eyes try to see the extreme left side of complete image and extreme right side of complete image. When you close one eye the image is still there but the vision is smaller i.e. the object you could see at the outer edge of the closed eye will now be gone. Therefore, this also suggests that the complete vision is formed by both eyes.

However, and this is where this gets interesting - in terms of concentrating on something while down in the address position in snooker and focusing on the spot to pot the ob the brain uses or prefers image from one eye alone and Vmax is right on this and so is Terry. The reason is that you are concentrating and not just looking there is a huge difference. Looking at a chimney from the window yes the whole image is sent o tthe brain but try to focus on a spot on the chimney from the window my dear the whole calculation of the brain for such concentrated focused spot changes all together how the brain is getting the image.... the widest part of both eyes (outward extreme) as above will still be there or not ? I think yes because you need to close either eye to turn off that image part, as above. Now, those are still there as both eyes are open however you are not seeing them . hmmmmm ... why??? because the mind is focusing on one spot and hence ignoring the image coming from such ends and only concentrating on the best possible image for that spot, in this case, BOB to be there perfectly.

Why do you think in snooker we use both eyes open but in shooting we have to close one eye to get the perfect image to shoot ??? I think the answer to this will tell you the reason why mate.

This is a good resource on dominant eye, with respect to, shooting: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/how-to/sho...nance-test.cfm good information for learning.

[nrage]

Interesting reply Sidd. Thanks for the link on eye dominance, it's an interesting read (so far - not finished it yet).

I agree that when you focus on a spot the brain selects one image/eye over the other, and I agree that if both images are equally good then the brain will pick the dominant eye. No argument there.

So, can you explain why it is that my natural position is to cue to the left of my nose? And why when I test other positions, each for a good length of time, they all come out worse? Cos I'm curious to know why. I'm not particularly keen to change things at this stage because I don't believe I have any obvious issues/problems with my sighting of the ball or potting. My issue is positional play, control of the white and touch when in/around the balls. This just needs a lot more practice to learn and drill in, as far as I can see.

Here is an interesting excerpt from that link:
"One method of testing may not be enough to spot a subtle problem. Frankly this is something you cannot do on your own; accurate tests usually require a second person to assess how you are actually seeing things."

So, everyone should get someone to help them test eye dominance (as I said at the start) and everyone should use multiple tests, not just one.

Also, according to your link, not everyone should close one eye to shoot. It depends on the person and the style of shooting. People with strong dominance don't need to close an eye, it's only people with balance/non-dominance which should force the brain to pick an eye. Interesting stuff.

[Terry Davidson]

I think too many people are putting too much weight on 'dominant' or 'preferred' eye. The reason most players miss shots is because they don't deliver the cue straight and in order to effectively evaluate preferred eye and moving the cue under the chin a player would have to deliver consistently straight as otherwise he wouldn't know why he was missing pots.

If a player has significantly reduced visual acuity in one eye (like Joe Davis had) then there is a point in moving the cue underneath the good eye, however if a player has good vision (even with correction) then there is no point in changing the set-up to accommodate a preferred eye and then having to learn to deliver the cue consistently straight all over again.

How do any of the advocates know if having a player move the cue more underneath the preferred eye doesn't just align his set-up better so he pots more accurately and also as a result of better potting assumes he is 'seeing' or sighting the cue more accurately.

If you had a raw beginner who has never held a cue then you could check for his preferred eye and start him with a set-up which favours that eye but getting a player to change the set-up in mid-stream is always a bad idea unless the player has bags of time to devote to getting used to his new set-up.

Those players who think they can't aim correctly or can't sight correctly are buying into this theory and it will not help them at all unless it alters their set-up for the better.

Terry