Another sighting/dominant eye question

[humperdingle]

Also, according to your link, not everyone should close one eye to shoot. It depends on the person and the style of shooting.

I don't close an eye when shooting... Ever. Keeping both eyes open, even when using a rifle, gives a wider view of events.

[Manu147]

I think too many people are putting too much weight on 'dominant' or 'preferred' eye. The reason most players miss shots is because they don't deliver the cue straight and in order to effectively evaluate preferred eye and moving the cue under the chin a player would have to deliver consistently straight as otherwise he wouldn't know why he was missing pots.

If a player has significantly reduced visual acuity in one eye (like Joe Davis had) then there is a point in moving the cue underneath the good eye, however if a player has good vision (even with correction) then there is no point in changing the set-up to accommodate a preferred eye and then having to learn to deliver the cue consistently straight all over again.

How do any of the advocates know if having a player move the cue more underneath the preferred eye doesn't just align his set-up better so he pots more accurately and also as a result of better potting assumes he is 'seeing' or sighting the cue more accurately.

If you had a raw beginner who has never held a cue then you could check for his preferred eye and start him with a set-up which favours that eye but getting a player to change the set-up in mid-stream is always a bad idea unless the player has bags of time to devote to getting used to his new set-up.

Those players who think they can't aim correctly or can't sight correctly are buying into this theory and it will not help them at all unless it alters their set-up for the better.

Terry

Terry, from my own experience, when I first started playin 10 or 11, I cued plum centre chin, dead between both eyes, this was easy and natural to do, as at that age young boys do not have generally have eye dominance, over the yrs my right eye is the dominant one now, and I play with the same stance etc, only now my head has turned subconsciously over the shot, to let this eye do more of the sightin than the left, the main point for me is the cue always stays on the same line as before, but the eye over the shot has changed. Ronnie as a teenager was pretty much centre chin, as when he startin playin would have had no eye dominance, but now plays with his left eye more over the shot. This is probably happened so slowly and gradually over the yrs that he hasn't even noticed(that's how I am), as all it took for me was a slight tilt in my head( bout an inch or so different than when I first started), has not affected my set up at all.

[Terry Davidson]

Manu:

What you describe is the only way to try and use a 'preferred eye' set-up and I agree most likely developed over the years as you aged and your vision changed. What I'm against is first of all people who put far too much weight on preferred eye and advocate moving the cue on the chin and secondly using the preferred eye alignment as the primary consideration is a player's set-up. I think body alignment and stability are the most important factors.

If a player gets down into the address position and feels he is unsure about his sighting and feels he is not choosing the right line and feels he must adjust while down on the shot then I think it's time to get a SightRite device and use it to find out where the best eye position in relation to the cue is for him, but he should do this by turning the head and NOT moving the cue to one side of his chin or the other.

If this player then attempts to move the cue on the chin (maybe after seeing a photo of Joe Davis or one of the other pros like Jack Jones) then he has to make other adjustments in his set-up to compensate for the different body alignment which I believe is definitely NOT the way to go.

The correct way is to turn the head one way or another (not much is needed) and as long as that doesn't cause any discomfort or strain in the set-up then he won't be forced to change or alter his set-up to compensate for a different alignment between the cue and his body. I also agree with you that any pro who has the cue to one side or another or turns his head (or both like Neil Robertson) has adjusted to this over the years as his vision is always changing as it does in every one of us. This change in alignment of cue to eyes probably had no conscious thought regarding his preferred eye but rather more to do with clarity of his binocular vision. In addition, turning the head does have one drawback in that it reduces the baseline distance between the eyes in relation to the cue however this is very minimal and is of no consequence in my mind.

My own experience is when I was younger (and playing much better) in the mid-80's and before my right eye was always the strongest and looking at photos of me in action from that time I had the cue centre-chin with my elbow hanging slightly inside and my head square to the shot. (In addition, even though I used Joe Davis' book I never thought about dominant eye at all). After I quit playing I had to have cataract lens replacement surgery in both eyes in the early 2000's and the surgeon made my LEFT eye 20/20 and the right 20/50 and when I started playing again I naturally sighted with my left eye and it has become my preferred eye especially since they could never give me a contact which gave my right eye 20/10 and it remained at 20/50 (nearsighted) and I didn't wear a contact in it until recently when they finally managed to get a prescription for me.

Now that I'm 20/10 (evenly slightly far-sighted) in both eyes with lenses it will be interesting to see what happens as so far after 3 months I haven't changed anything and still turn my head very slightly to the right but only because that eases the strain on my neck. I've found I can no longer face the shot square on as it does strain my neck but it also does favour my left eye.

I did notice in comparing new action photos of myself that my elbow now hangs slightly outside the cue rather than slightly inside as it used to so I even may have changed my set-up to compensate for not having a clear picture in my right eye although I still use it for binocular vision as bad as it was.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

I have always been right eye dominant according to the tests but I think my vision is actually fairly balanced. I say this because in the hold up a finger and cover a distant object test I can 'see' 2 silhouette's of my finger, one slightly more distinct than the other. But, I can concentrate on the less distinct image I can make it the more distinct image and the result, left eye dominant. It does require that I concentrate, which suggests my right eye is more naturally preferred in this test.

However, if I try to cue center chin or to the right of my nose it all goes horribly wrong. The best position for me is, and has always been just to the left of my nose. If my brain were selecting only the image from the right eye to line this up, then it's making life hard for itself, right?

Perhaps I have simply trained my brain to this position, but I don't recall struggling with cue sports at the beginning, in fact I was typically the best out of my mates right from the word go. So, perhaps this position, slightly to the left was trained in by something else, perhaps another sport I played as a youngster, or perhaps this is simply a natural/inbuilt result of how my brain works, who knows.

Ultimately I do not think my brain is selecting to use only the information from my dominant right eye to line up shots, I think it uses both eyes and combines the information to form the picture I see.

I think it uses the information from each eye to confirm/reinforce something is on a given line, and when I feel it's not on line, despite it looking to be on line, perhaps this is due to information from one eye conflicting with the other, the brain has selected one for the picture I see, but I am subconsciously aware of the other information and this makes me uneasy.

Just some more food for thought..

Thanks for trying to help but you're totally wrong about this.

Am I really, or do you need me to be based on our history on this forum ?

The current position of my head relative to cue is optimal for me, in this position what I see is what is actually there. When the cue looks on line, it is on line, when the tip looks center ball it is center ball, etc.

You say you are right eye dominant but your set up is for left eye dominant. With which eye does the tip of the cue point to the centre of the cue ball ?

p.s. This idea you have that I have bad hand-eye coordination is a fiction, I have no idea what you're basing it on but it's patently false. My hand-eye coordination is above average, though not as good as some people I know.

I'm basing it on the quote above, having a dominant right eye but putting the cue nearer to your submissive left eye and being uneasy about conflicting images that your brain is seeing.

For example I played 1st 11 cricket (and football) at high school, and football to a reasonable standard following that until my knee injury. I played indoor cricket, indoor football, volleyball, hockey and practiced martial arts. I juggle, play guitar and drums, work as a software engineer and play computer games as a hobby. All of this requires decent hand-eye coordination, and it's never been an issue. In addition my reaction times are consistently well above average in all the tests I've tried. I am naturally good at sports and other physical activity. Whatever image you have of me in your head, it's wrong.

The difference, for me, with snooker is that I came to the game much later than all the others, and I don't get enough practice.

After a great exhaltation of blowing your own bugle you come up with this old chestnut again, sorry nrage but it won't wash.
Right eye dominant with a left eye dominant set up, whether natural or not, will lead to conflicting images as regards to the hand following the eye, which in my book means bad hand/eye co-ordination, end of.

I don't mind being proven wrong, but a player who struggles to make a twenty break isn't going to do it. Let a regular century break player come on to this thread and tell me that he addresses the cue ball using both eyes and with neither one is the cue pointing at the centre of the cue ball in the address position and I will start to doubt myself.

[vmax4steve]

I think too many people are putting too much weight on 'dominant' or 'preferred' eye.

Really Terry, you use yours do you not ?

How do any of the advocates know if having a player move the cue more underneath the preferred eye doesn't just align his set-up better so he pots more accurately and also as a result of better potting assumes he is 'seeing' or sighting the cue more accurately.

That is the crux of this debate, but it would not be accidental Terry, it would simply be making the set up the way it should be and the potting would improve because he is seeing or sighting the cue more accurately, not assuming that he is.

Terry

..........

[nrage]

Am I really, or do you need me to be based on our history on this forum ?

No, not at all. Are you really that cynical? Imagining this sort of pettiness in others.. that's a worry.

You say you are right eye dominant but your set up is for left eye dominant. With which eye does the tip of the cue point to the centre of the cue ball ?

Both, from memory. As in, neither eye is directly behind the cue but both show me that the tip is pointing at the center of the white (confirmed by outside observer) and through that to the OB (again, confirmed by 3rd party).

I haven't had a chance to repeat the test again recently.

I'm basing it on the quote above, having a dominant right eye but putting the cue nearer to your submissive left eye and being uneasy about conflicting images that your brain is seeing.

I am not uneasy about conflicting images 99.9% of the time, you've taken a comment I made about the 0.1% and assumed something totally incorrect from that.

After a great exhaltation of blowing your own bugle you come up with this old chestnut again, sorry nrage but it won't wash.

You seemed to need some evidence of co-ordination.. ah, but I forgot, you assume I lie constantly so I guess this is pointless.

Right eye dominant with a left eye dominant set up, whether natural or not, will lead to conflicting images as regards to the hand following the eye, which in my book means bad hand/eye co-ordination, end of.

As I said above, you've gotten this wrong, and as a result you're totally wrong about this whole thing. But, thanks for trying.

[nrage]

I don't mind being proven wrong, but a player who struggles to make a twenty break isn't going to do it. Let a regular century break player come on to this thread and tell me that he addresses the cue ball using both eyes and with neither one is the cue pointing at the centre of the cue ball in the address position and I will start to doubt myself.

I was sharing an observation, I was not trying to prove you wrong. In fact, I wasn't even referring to you - I didn't recall who had made the comment as I had read he thread the day before. The fact that you took my comment as a direct attack on yours is some sort of indication of insecurity I think.

To be clear, I don't want to try to convince you of anything. You can go on believing whatever you like, no skin off my nose - I couldn't care less.

I'm here for the interesting conversation and ideas, not endless bickering with you. So, can we be done with this perhaps?

[nrage]

Interesting reply Sidd. Thanks for the link on eye dominance, it's an interesting read (so far - not finished it yet).

I agree that when you focus on a spot the brain selects one image/eye over the other, and I agree that if both images are equally good then the brain will pick the dominant eye. No argument there

After reading that article and thinking about it further I have changed my mind about what I said above. It does not necessarily follow that the brain has to select one image/eye over the other, even when you're focusing on a spot.

Of course, if the spot you're focusing on can only be seen by one eye, the brain only have information from one eye and will ignore the other eye.. for information about that spot specifically, but.. if you're trying to point something at that spot, you need information about the spot /and/ the thing you're pointing at it. It's the combination of this information which is "aiming". So, surely the more information/reference points you can get, the better right? So, why wouldn't the brain use all the information it is given by both eyes?

Also, according to your link, not everyone should close one eye to shoot. It depends on the person and the style of shooting. People with strong dominance don't need to close an eye, it's only people with balance/non-dominance which should force the brain to pick an eye. Interesting stuff.

I think shooting is an 'ok' analogy to snooker, but the ranges are very different. In shooting one object is very close (rifle) the other is very far away (target). In snooker both objects are typically very close. When you focus on an object which is far away, and you close the dominant eye you see the image jump - as the non dominant eye takes over. If you do the same with a nearby object and do the same test, nothing discernible happens. So, both images, from both eyes are likely almost identical in this case. Meaning, it doesn't really matter which one is being used.

In addition, when that article talks about a "low comb" which can cause cross dominance (the non-dominant eye taking over) this happens because the bead on the stock of the gun is too low for the dominant eye (which is directly behind it) to see properly, so the left eye which can see out in front takes over. In snooker the cue is below the eye, not directly in front .. so perhaps this low comb phenomenon can occur in snooker (ok, the tip is likely visible, but you're trying to line that up with a spot further back to check the cue is actually on line, right?)

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

I use my left eye only because my right eye never had clear vision after my eye surgery. I only turn my head to the right in order to relieve the strain on the lower neck.

Up until I quit snooker in the 90's my right eye was always my dominant eye but I cued centre-chin judging by the photos. After the surgery I could only see the balls out of my left eye (similar to Joe Davis) but have just recently received a contact which brings my right eye to 20/10 like my left.

I don't believe there is a need to align the cue more underneath the preferred eye for most players and should only be considered if one eye is very weak or blurry from astigmatism. Centre-chin makes for a much more consistent set-up although as we can see from most of the pros they do turn their heads a bit but I don't believe that is a conscious decision to align with the preferred eye but rather something that developed through thousands of hours of practice.

Even Steve Davis in the SightRite video said he didn't know if Ronnie was left eye dominant so I think your statement on all the pros regarding where the cue aligns to their preferred eye may just be supposition and not a hard fact since Chris Small also advocates centre-chin along with Nic Barrow (and myself).

Terry

[j6uk]

I can hear vmax cracking he's knuckles and banging the keys

[vmax4steve]

vmax:

I use my left eye only because my right eye never had clear vision after my eye surgery. I only turn my head to the right in order to relieve the strain on the lower neck.

Up until I quit snooker in the 90's my right eye was always my dominant eye but I cued centre-chin judging by the photos. After the surgery I could only see the balls out of my left eye (similar to Joe Davis) but have just recently received a contact which brings my right eye to 20/10 like my left.

I don't believe there is a need to align the cue more underneath the preferred eye for most players and should only be considered if one eye is very weak or blurry from astigmatism. Centre-chin makes for a much more consistent set-up although as we can see from most of the pros they do turn their heads a bit but I don't believe that is a conscious decision to align with the preferred eye but rather something that developed through thousands of hours of practice.

I disagree, they do this because it's the dominant eye that puts the cue on the line of aim and they are simply using their dominant eye naturally, just like you do.

Even Steve Davis in the SightRite video said he didn't know if Ronnie was left eye dominant so I think your statement on all the pros regarding where the cue aligns to their preferred eye may just be supposition and not a hard fact since Chris Small also advocates centre-chin along with Nic Barrow (and myself).

Terry

Centre chin doesn't mean that both eyes are used to address the cue ball. The dominant eye wil make you place you feet, body and head in the correct position for your cue to be placed on the line of aim. As the eyes are about two and a half inches apart the brain must select one to do this because the information it receives from both eyes give the cue two directions from which to come from to the centre of the cue ball.
The brain chooses one direction from one eye only, it doesn't put the cue right in the centre of the two images it is receiving from the eyes because that is a line that isn't there as it isn't seen.

nrage says that he sees the tip of the cue pointing at the centre of the cue ball with both eyes, but that is not my point at all. My point is that the cue will look to be pointing at the centre of the ball with the submissive eye also because both eyes are focussing on this point, but only with the dominant eye will the cue lie on the line of aim, the submissive eye will show the cue coming from outside the line of aim to point at the centre of the cue ball and this is very noticeable when closing the dominant eye when down in the stance.
Therefore not using the dominant eye to address the cue ball means the cue won't be on the line of aim.

This tells me that the dominant eye is crucial in determining sighting and that it happens naturally in all good players whether they cue centre chin or not.
But to tell someone who has a prominant dominant eye, yet doesn't know it, that centre chin cueing is the correct way to play is plain wrong whether Nic Barrow says so or not.

Players who play badly because they don't use their dominant eye to address the cue ball should be taught to do so and I believe that this is the most crucial aspect in a player getting everything in line.
The hand follows the eye does it not ?
Therefore getting the sighting right is the most crucial aspect in snooker. Getting the sighting wrong means the feet aren't in the correct position, the body therefore isn't in the correct position, neither is the head or the cue arm or bridge hand and the cue isn't on the line of aim from the start, which will lead to either cueing straight down the wrong line of aim (missing), or cueing across the ball while trying to find the correct line of aim only when down in the stance (missing).

The cue is put on the line of aim by the dominant eye only. I'm willing to bet that if you close your submissive eye and line up a shot and get down into your stance using only your dominant eye, when you open your submissive eye everything will look as it should and as it does when you do this with both eyes open. Do this the other way round though and it will all look and feel wrong once your dominant eye opens.

This is what is happening with some players even though both eyes are open when they sight the shot, it all looks and feels wrong when down in the stance. So I say find out your dominant (preferred) eye, stand behind the shot favouring this eye by positioning your body or head to your submissive side and approach the shot from that position keeping the eyes on the contact point of the object ball all the way down into the stance.
If it's working for Mick and Alabadi it can work for others too.

You know I sometimes get the feeling that just because something doesn't come from Nic Barrow it doesn't get taken seriously.

[j6uk]

I remember Barrow in and around the pro-am scene many years ago, getting bashed up week in and out. No one took him seriously then so, maybe this is now his time..
The thing is, what you are getting from a player that plays the game to a high standard, someone who's worked incredibly hard for the game they love, put in untold thousands of hours of 'know thanks' practice plus, the miles driving around the country is: they know what they're talking about.

You know I sometimes get the feeling that just because something doesn't come from Nic Barrow it doesn't get taken seriously.

[itsnoteasy]

VMax do the finger test thing keep both eyes open ,turn your head to favour your dominant eye still with both eyes open, does it move?, when I tried this it didn't make any difference ,this may just be my eyesight though, so it would be good to hear if it moves with other folk(just trying to find out if turning your head with both eyes open actually makes a difference ,as this is how we cue.)

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

What you are saying is players should alter their set-up in order to get their dominant eye more over the cue. I think that is a very dangerous statement to make and players shouldn't be encouraged to alter their set-up to conform to your theory which is based on circumstantial evidence as there is no definitive proof that better sighting is obtained by getting the cue more under the preferred eye. There are and have been many really good players who have cued centre-chin but they would all have had a preferred eye.

You don't KNOW if Ronnie or any other pro (or player) cues under one eye or another due to preferred eye. You've observed different players cueing more under one eye and assumed the preferred eye is the reason when it might not be.

The more important aspect of all of this is aiming correctly and then getting straight down on that line of aim. If a player does that consistently he will deliver the cue straight and even if he is not sighting under his preferred eye, if he observes the object ball his brain will get the feedback loop it needs and the sighting will agree with the aiming.

I think the only thing around which helps with this is the SightRite device which can tell a player where he should be placing his eyes in relation to the cue and it may not be more under his preferred eye at all but rather that one spot where he sees the straight line using both eyes. When I tried it I never did see a straight line using both eyes as my right eye was so poor, but then maybe I'm using it wrong. (I just tried it and I don't see a straight line with both eyes (both 20/10 now) but with either one closed I can adjust my head to see a straight line and then open the other eye and everything looks fine. It seems I can select the correct line of aim when sighting using either eye by itself with no problems. So now the question is, which is my preferred eye? (I know it's my left but the right eye works just the same.)

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk

Just because Nic didn't make it into the top 100 doesn't mean he isn't a great coach. Frank Callan only ever won his county title once but he is regarded as one of the best coaches ever. I'm not certain if Del Hill ever won anything. Chris Henry?

I consider myself a decent coach and I only ever won a county title and a few other tournaments as an amateur and I never did turn pro, just like Frank.

On the other hand, Chris Small made it into the top 16 before medical reasons put him on the sidelines and he teaches the same methods as Nic does.

So please don't make a blanket statement that if a coach hasn't been a professional world champ or at least a top pro then he can't be much of a coach, as I take exception to that remark.

Terry