Another sighting/dominant eye question

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

It seems to me there's not that much we disagree on, just one point I think. Here's what I believe:

1. Every player and in fact every person has a dominant eye, I have already stated that and so has Chris.
2. Snooker players will sight the cue using the dominant eye for aiming and the other eye for depth perception.
3. A person can force his brain to use the non-dominant eye by closing his dominant eye (like a rifle shooter who is left eye dominant but right-handed will shut his left eye and sight using the right). I had to do this after my eye surgery made my right eye weaker than my left as previously I had been sighting with my right eye as it had the clearer image and was my dominant eye for 40 years.

And here's where we disagree:

1. I don't think it's necessary to adjust the eyes in relation to the cue so the cue runs more under the dominant eye. However, almost every player I've ever seen does not face exactly square to the shot and that is because it stresses the lower neck and for comfort reasons the player will turn the head slightly to relieve that stress. Even Joe Davis and Jamie Jones have their heads turned slightly and in Joe's case it was because he was virtually blind in his right eye.

2. Do you know of any players who are the same as far as being left or right handed and having the same eye dominant? I every case I've looked at it appears a lefty is favouring the right eye and righties are favouring the left eye and I think comfort is the most compelling reason for this.

3. A player can still sight accurately using his dominant eye no matter where the cue is in relation to the eyes, (within limits of course).

4. I also believe all of the players who believe they are not sighting accurately are mistaken and the reason they are missing pots is because they don't deliver the cue consistently straight. If a player states that he can't sight accurately all he has to do is without any balls on the table just try and point his cue at the edge of the leather on a top pocket from the baulkline in the address position, and in the majority of cases the cue will be lined up perfectly or in other words sighted correctly. Why would having a cueball and object ball make this any different? The reason is he has lost the line of aim from his pre-shot routine.

5. It is an advantage to a player to cue centre-chin as much as he can comfortably as by far the best technique is one with the fewest moving parts and with everything in line, foot, grip hand, shoulder and head so there is no lateral compensation required in order to cue straight.

6. It is normal and natural for a player standing behind the shot and getting his line of aim should be pointing his nose directly at the object ball so his head is square to the line of aim and not turn his head to place the dominant eye closer to the object ball. Then if he drops his head as straight down as he possibly can he will remain on the line of aim he chose when he had the best perspective of the shot when seeing it from above.

This is why I think a player should not adjust his set-up to favour the dominant eye and that's even if he feels he isn't sighting correctly as it is most likely that he is sighting the shot correctly and there's some other reason for the problem. If he does this naturally to get more comfort and relieve neck strain then comfort is the reason and not dominant eye.

Terry

[laverda]

vmax:


2. Do you know of any players who are the same as far as being left or right handed and having the same eye dominant? I every case I've looked at it appears a lefty is favouring the right eye and righties are favouring the left eye and I think comfort is the most compelling reason for this.

Terry

My hands up... right eye dominant and right handed... do I get a prize?
Mick

[DandyA]

My hands up... right eye dominant and right handed... do I get a prize?
Mick

me too! although to add an extra complication, I write left-handed

[DandyA]

just to add my 2p to the discussion ...

on the pool table down the pub tonight I set up 3 object balls from centre table a foot apart in an exact line to a corner pocket and then placed the white a foot further away exactly on that line ... standing up well away from the table, I checked all 4 balls were dead in a line to the pocket ...

then I addressed the white with my cue using my normal position - head square with the cue slightly right of centre chin (but only slightly, definitely not under my right dominant eye) ... with both eyes open everything looked fine, the cue looked dead straight to the line of the balls ...

I then tried closing one eye and then the other and got the results nrage reported, with either left or right eye, the cue is coming in from the side and doesn't appear to be on the line of aim ... but surely this is to be expected as neither of my eyes are actually over the cue? But, to repeat, with both eyes open, the cue appears perfectly on line ...

I then tried both eyes open and rotating my head either clockwise or anticlockwise ... both made the cue appear off the line of aim ... with both eyes open, the only other position I could get the cue to appear on the line of aim was like Jamie Jones, ie with the cue way off centre chin under my right cheek (and right eye) ...

I conclude from this that everyone is different ... I would recommend that every player tries something similar to the above test to determine which is best for them which may well be different from the results I get ... indeed, it probably will ...

But what I fail to understand is why some posters are so adamant that all players should do it their way ... everyone's eyesight, and more importantly, the way their brain combines two separate images are different ... so what works for one, may not work for another and vice versa ...

[Manu147]

[QUOTE=Terry Davidson;721814]vmax:

It seems to me there's not that much we disagree on, just one point I think. Here's what I believe:

1. Every player and in fact every person has a dominant eye, I have already stated that and so has Chris.
2. Snooker players will sight the cue using the dominant eye for aiming and the other eye for depth perception.
3. A person can force his brain to use the non-dominant eye by closing his dominant eye (like a rifle shooter who is left eye dominant but right-handed will shut his left eye and sight using the right). I had to do this after my eye surgery made my right eye weaker than my left as previously I had been sighting with my right eye as it had the clearer image and was my dominant eye for 40 years.

And here's where we disagree:

1. I don't think it's necessary to adjust the eyes in relation to the cue so the cue runs more under the dominant eye. However, almost every player I've ever seen does not face exactly square to the shot and that is because it stresses the lower neck and for comfort reasons the player will turn the head slightly to relieve that stress. Even Joe Davis and Jamie Jones have their heads turned slightly and in Joe's case it was because he was virtually blind in his right eye.

2. Do you know of any players who are the same as far as being left or right handed and having the same eye dominant? I every case I've looked at it appears a lefty is favouring the right eye and righties are favouring the left eye and I think comfort is the most compelling reason for this.

3. A player can still sight accurately using his dominant eye no matter where the cue is in relation to the eyes, (within limits of course).

4. I also believe all of the players who believe they are not sighting accurately are mistaken and the reason they are missing pots is because they don't deliver the cue consistently straight. If a player states that he can't sight accurately all he has to do is without any balls on the table just try and point his cue at the edge of the leather on a top pocket from the baulkline in the address position, and in the majority of cases the cue will be lined up perfectly or in other words sighted correctly. Why would having a cueball and object ball make this any different? The reason is he has lost the line of aim from his pre-shot routine.

5. It is an advantage to a player to cue centre-chin as much as he can comfortably as by far the best technique is one with the fewest moving parts and with everything in line, foot, grip hand, shoulder and head so there is no lateral compensation required in order to cue straight.

6. It is normal and natural for a player standing behind the shot and getting his line of aim should be pointing his nose directly at the object ball so his head is square to the line of aim and not turn his head to place the dominant eye closer to the object ball. Then if he drops his head as straight down as he possibly can he will remain on the line of aim he chose when he had the best perspective of the shot when seeing it from above.

This is why I think a player should not adjust his set-up to favour the dominant eye and that's even if he feels he isn't sighting correctly as it is most likely that he is sighting the shot correctly and there's some other reason for the problem. If he does this naturally to get more comfort and relieve neck strain then comfort is the reason and not dominant eye.

Terry[/Q
Terry, without even havin to think about it too much, I am right and right, mark allen left and left, shaun murphy right and right, nigel bond, Stephen hendryetc, no correlation between eyes, don't think u thought about that too much. lol

[j6uk]

Sorry terry,
The head is quite heavy so, since it is planted on the top of the spine, keeping it straight posturely seems better but Exactly how would turning the head relieve the stress?
Not sure, or are you really meaning the shoulders and hips?

And here's where we disagree:

1. I don't think it's necessary to adjust the eyes in relation to the cue so the cue runs more under the dominant eye. However, almost every player I've ever seen does not face exactly square to the shot and that is because it stresses the lower neck and for comfort reasons the player will turn the head slightly to relieve that stress. Even Joe Davis and Jamie Jones have their heads turned slightly and in Joe's case it was because he was virtually blind in his right eye.
Terry

[j6uk]

Uncle Jack Karnehm is right right:snooker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP4RvZJMPd8
Wish I had his hair.

Terry, without even havin to think about it too much, I am right and right, mark allen left and left, shaun murphy right and right, nigel bond, Stephen hendryetc, no correlation between eyes, don't think u thought about that too much. lol

[itsnoteasy]

Sorry terry,
The head is quite heavy so, since it is planted on the top of the spine, keeping it straight posturely seems better but Exactly how would turning the head relieve the stress?
Not sure, or are you really meaning the shoulders and hips?

your right J6, in a standing position all things being equal it has to be the easiest way to balance your head on top of your spine in a neutral position, but down on the shot your hips are twisted one way, and your shoulders are not square and with natural sighting issues coming into play, i could see why a slight head shift may come into play, dont know if thats a good thing mind, just that it could happen.
i would swap you some of my hair for your snooker ability lol. Hell you can have it all, i only use it to keep my head warm, and i own a hat.

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

I've found if I try to keep my head exactly square to the shot like I used to do in the 80's it stresses my lower neck/upper back and turning the head relieves that strain. The other thing in play is I can't tilt my head up as far as I used to. I believe these are age-related and I'm just not as flexible as I used to be. Maybe time for more yoga or something.

Manu:

I will look again and do some checking if I can find more images of players in the address position. I looked at Neil R for a lefty and he is opposite, Mark Williams is also opposite but I didn't check Mark Allen and the others. Do you align the cue centre-chin or is it aligned over more under your right eye?

The reason I ask is if you have it on the side of your chin (check out John Virgo) it does unbalance the set-up a bit or at least in his case it did.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

Manu147:

OK, so I went to the world snooker photo gallery and checked every pro I found in there. What I looked at is where the nose was pointed and unless they have bent noses that is the only way to tell how the eyes are situated.

Mark Allen has his nose pointed to the left, bringing his right eye more over the cue.
Hendry, nose turned right
Murphy, nose almost straight but slightly right
Selby, nose pointed to the right
Ronnie, nose pointed to the right (couldn't find a shot of him playing lefty)


What I'm thinking now is the slight head turn that most of the pros have is more to do with comfort since it appears to me it is always in the same direction as the grip arm. I find it really difficult to turn my head exactly square to the shot. I've tried it using a mirror and just can't do it without really kinking my neck.

Terry

[j6uk]

Ha ha ha, okay I'll trade six-balcks for enough body to cover the crown.. Then if you don't mind we can do the same in ten years and I'll throw-in a hat

i would swap you some of my hair for your snooker ability lol. Hell you can have it all, i only use it to keep my head warm, and i own a hat.

[j6uk]

Have you been on the bacardi? Stop kidding around terry

Manu147:
What I'm thinking now is the slight head turn that most of the pros have is more to do with comfort since it appears to me it is always in the same direction as the grip arm. I find it really difficult to turn my head exactly square to the shot. I've tried it using a mirror and just can't do it without really kinking my neck.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

vmax:

It seems to me there's not that much we disagree on, just one point I think. Here's what I believe:

1. Every player and in fact every person has a dominant eye, I have already stated that and so has Chris.
2. Snooker players will sight the cue using the dominant eye for aiming and the other eye for depth perception.

I also say this, but I say that the act of aiming is putting the cue on the line of aim, this is done by the dominant eye. If you would agree that aiming and putting the cue on the line of aim are the same thing, would you not concede that nrage and DandyA are not putting the cue on the line of aim if they can see their cue coming in from outside the line of aim to the centre of the cue with both eyes when down in their stance ?

3. A person can force his brain to use the non-dominant eye by closing his dominant eye (like a rifle shooter who is left eye dominant but right-handed will shut his left eye and sight using the right). I had to do this after my eye surgery made my right eye weaker than my left as previously I had been sighting with my right eye as it had the clearer image and was my dominant eye for 40 years.

The brain can also subconsciously make this happen if the dominant eye becomes weaker over time or even suddenly due to injury. In your case the left eye took over from the right, which was either completely natural or something you had to force yourself to do.



And here's where we disagree:

1. I don't think it's necessary to adjust the eyes in relation to the cue so the cue runs more under the dominant eye. However, almost every player I've ever seen does not face exactly square to the shot and that is because it stresses the lower neck and for comfort reasons the player will turn the head slightly to relieve that stress. Even Joe Davis and Jamie Jones have their heads turned slightly and in Joe's case it was because he was virtually blind in his right eye.

This is our big disagreement. I think it's nothing to do with comfort but simply the natural aiming process in action, putting the cue nearer to or even under the dominant eye. You say that all the players you have looked at do not have their heads entirely square on to the shot and that this is purely for comfort, as you believe that is the case for yourself. Logic dictates that coincidently not everyone can have issues with comfort like you do, logic dictates that this is purely the natural aiming process in action, in yourself and all those other top players.

2. Do you know of any players who are the same as far as being left or right handed and having the same eye dominant? I every case I've looked at it appears a lefty is favouring the right eye and righties are favouring the left eye and I think comfort is the most compelling reason for this.

Sorry Terry but you are mistaken about this as manu147 has pointed out.

3. A player can still sight accurately using his dominant eye no matter where the cue is in relation to the eyes, (within limits of course).

Finding the correct place for the cue in relation to the actual dominance of the dominant eye is the key to putting the cue on the correct line of aim imo. This is what the sightright device does does it not.

4. I also believe all of the players who believe they are not sighting accurately are mistaken and the reason they are missing pots is because they don't deliver the cue consistently straight. If a player states that he can't sight accurately all he has to do is without any balls on the table just try and point his cue at the edge of the leather on a top pocket from the baulkline in the address position, and in the majority of cases the cue will be lined up perfectly or in other words sighted correctly. Why would having a cueball and object ball make this any different? The reason is he has lost the line of aim from his pre-shot routine.

When I experimented with closing my dominant eye when standing up behind the shot and aiming and getting down into my stance using only my submissive eye, I found that when I opened both eyes when down in the stance my dominant eye then wanted to take over, making me cue across the cue ball from the line of aim selected by my submissive eye to the one that my dominant eye was seeing.

5. It is an advantage to a player to cue centre-chin as much as he can comfortably as by far the best technique is one with the fewest moving parts and with everything in line, foot, grip hand, shoulder and head so there is no lateral compensation required in order to cue straight.

It is an advantage for a player to play as naturally as possible and to allow his dominant eye subconscious control in order to place the cue on the line of aim. Feet, body and head position should follow naturally.

6. It is normal and natural for a player standing behind the shot and getting his line of aim should be pointing his nose directly at the object ball so his head is square to the line of aim and not turn his head to place the dominant eye closer to the object ball. Then if he drops his head as straight down as he possibly can he will remain on the line of aim he chose when he had the best perspective of the shot when seeing it from above.

The examples you have given in the pros you mention show this to be a mistaken assumption. While it's true that standing square to the shot will give the best panoramic view of the table, when actually getting down into the stance the dominant eye will take over and put the cue on the line of aim while the feet body and head position will follow. What can happen with some players is the losing of the line of aim when whan actually getting down due to the dominant eye losing control, therefore the feet, body and head position ends ends up wrong and they find themselves cueing across the cue ball as in my submissive eye experiment.

Telling a player to stand square to the table and drop straight down may be making some players follow this to the absolute letter, and losing the line of aim as a result, but seeing as this comes from Nic Barrow who has a very square on head position, it can't be assumed to be right for those with a more prominant dominant eye than he has.

This is why I think a player should not adjust his set-up to favour the dominant eye and that's even if he feels he isn't sighting correctly as it is most likely that he is sighting the shot correctly and there's some other reason for the problem. If he does this naturally to get more comfort and relieve neck strain then comfort is the reason and not dominant eye.

If a player doesn't clearly see the line of aim with his dominant eye when he is down in the stance position then the cue isn't on the line of aim because he hasn't aimed correctly, has lost the line of aim in his pre shot routine. To ensure that he doesn't I advocate favouring the dominant eye when standing up and sighting the shot by putting the head or body in the same position it would be in when down in the stance so that the submissive eye has less of a chance of taking over.

I naturally do this btw, I stand behind the shot with my right foot pointing at a 45 degree angle to the right of the line of aim, same as my actual stance. This naturally makes me move my head about half an inch to the right so that my dominant eye is in control of the aiming process and therefore my body doesn't have to turn when I'm getting down into my stance as it's already at the correct angle and I merely have to step forward and place my feet.

Now where is the danger in that ?

Telling someone to simply drop straight down with the nose pointing along the line of aim holds more danger imo as the player could very well overide his natural dominant eye aiming process when following this to the letter.

tell me Terry, what stance did you have when your right eye was ok and was your dominant eye. was it square to favour your right eye ?
is it boxer now that you favour your left ?
Is it square now even though you favour your left ? and if so do you turn your head to favour your left rather than take a boxer stance to do so.

Terry

....................

[vmax4steve]

What I'm thinking now is the slight head turn that most of the pros have is more to do with comfort since it appears to me it is always in the same direction as the grip arm.

Terry

Or is it simply the head in the correct position for the dominant eye to put the cue on the line of aim and then the hand following the eye ?

[Manu147]

Manu147:

OK, so I went to the world snooker photo gallery and checked every pro I found in there. What I looked at is where the nose was pointed and unless they have bent noses that is the only way to tell how the eyes are situated.

Mark Allen has his nose pointed to the left, bringing his right eye more over the cue.
Hendry, nose turned right
Murphy, nose almost straight but slightly right
Selby, nose pointed to the right
Ronnie, nose pointed to the right (couldn't find a shot of him playing lefty)


What I'm thinking now is the slight head turn that most of the pros have is more to do with comfort since it appears to me it is always in the same direction as the grip arm. I find it really difficult to turn my head exactly square to the shot. I've tried it using a mirror and just can't do it without really kinking my neck.

Terry

Terry, I cue centre chin wth my cue just into between my nose and dominant eye, and if u are seeing mark allens RIGHT eye more over the cue, then u have lost the plot completely!