Another sighting/dominant eye question

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

I think I would disagree with Alex Higgins being 'articulate' but perhaps when he was sober. I met him a couple of times and he certainly wasn't articulate however he was pissed both times.

Also, you are basing your statement on my skill level from when I was talking about me in the 1960's and well before I took snooker seriously. In the late 80's I lived in Britain and played on the pro-am circuit and I believe I was a much better player however I did quit the game for 10 years in the mid-90's and only started playing again in late 2005.

For Manu147...there are NO young players in Canada so I don't have the chance to coach any promising young players as they just don't exist here. I wish I had a few younger students. (What is they say about sarcasm?)

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

I think the best way to close this is to 'agree to disagree'. Obviously you believe it's important to align the cue in consideration of the dominant or preferred eye. Just as obviously I believe this is not necessary to achieve accurate sighting of the cue (and yes I agree the cue is normally sighted using the dominant eye) but a player's sighting should be checked during coaching just to confirm he is sighting accurately and I use the SightRight device to confirm that (or try and correct if the player doesn't see a solid and unbroken line).

My opinion is a natural and comfortable set-up is the most important item for a player and should override consideration of dominant eye.

Weirdly enough I just read a few things on dominant eye and they all said in 70% of the male population the dominant eye is the one on the dominant arm side, meaning 70% of right handed players should be right-eye dominant. However, they also said a person can force a change in eye dominance and this was in an article specifically for billiards. The same article also said trying to force the cue more under the dominant eye could lead to neck and back strain and was not recommended and this would be where forcing a change makes sense for less strain.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

vmax:

I think the best way to close this is to 'agree to disagree'. Obviously you believe it's important to align the cue in consideration of the dominant or preferred eye. Just as obviously I believe this is not necessary to achieve accurate sighting of the cue (and yes I agree the cue is normally sighted using the dominant eye) but a player's sighting should be checked during coaching just to confirm he is sighting accurately and I use the SightRight device to confirm that (or try and correct if the player doesn't see a solid and unbroken line).

My opinion is a natural and comfortable set-up is the most important item for a player and should override consideration of dominant eye.

Weirdly enough I just read a few things on dominant eye and they all said in 70% of the male population the dominant eye is the one on the dominant arm side, meaning 70% of right handed players should be right-eye dominant. However, they also said a person can force a change in eye dominance and this was in an article specifically for billiards. The same article also said trying to force the cue more under the dominant eye could lead to neck and back strain and was not recommended and this would be where forcing a change makes sense for less strain.

Terry

I believe Terry that we actually agree on this argument, the dominant eye puts the cue on the line of aim and the cue is placed according to just how dominant the dominant eye is.

Both eyes simply cannot be used for this because, as I have said before, the brain receives two images, one from each eye, and it chooses only one of the two cues it sees to put on the line of aim even though both eyes are open.
This is entirely logical to a logical thinker like me, and all the photographic evidence that you yoursefl have looked at regarding pro players set ups confirms this.

You are sidetracked in your thinking by your own belief that you sight the same way as all the top players because it's simply more comfortable for you to do so, so you believe this to be true of all the top pros as well.

The sightright device shows a player how to line up the shot and aim with the dominant eye, and the student can adjust their body/head position to get the sighting right when down in the stance.

You use the sightright device in your teaching, so you do in effect teach that it's best to sight and aim using the dominant eye and yet you say this is wrong, that is "highly illogical" to quote a certain pointed eared first officer.

My opinion also is that a natural and comfortable set up is the most important factor for a player, and imo the dominant eye when in control does this on a subconscious level and a players stance and head position will be set by the dominant eye. A right handed left eye dominant player will naturally take a boxer stance and a right handed right eye dominant player will naturally take a square stance.

Now if a right handed player takes a square stance when he is left eye dominant he will have to have a head turn to the right to favour his dominant eye and if a right handed player takes a boxer stance when he is right eye dominant he will have to have a head turn to the left to favour his dominant eye.

This allied to the twist in the hips could very well lead to the discomfort that you describe, is this the case with you as you haven't answered my question as to which stance you took when you were right eye dominant and which stance you take now that you are left eye dominant and whether you forced a change or your brain naturally did it for you on a subconscious level that you were unaware of.

Also, now that the vision in your right eye has been corrected and is the same as your left, do you think you will revert back to being right eye dominant ? have you already ? do you think that you won't ?

When I played darts when I was younger, I was pretty good btw, I stood at the oche, side on favouring my right arm, and aiming with my right eye, even though I am left eye dominant. Totally unaware of that at the time, it's just something that had to happen naturally, so the brain can naturally switch. It could very well be that the very best darts players come from this 70% who are eye dominant with the preferred arm, just a thought.

Just to end this post,
I have total respect for your abilities as a player and a coach, but I think that the 'Nic Barrow way' is clouding your judgement and putting your logic on the back burner in favour of his doctrine as to what you are witnessing on this subject as regards to the top pros set ups

[vmax4steve]

Steve ... I guess you mean with both eyes OPEN ... I didn't say that ... in post #154 on this thread, I described an experiment in which with both eyes open in my normal cueing position, the line of aim looked spot on but with either eye shut it looked wrong ...

No I meant it as you descibed it, sorry for any confusion there.

this to me says my brain is computing a perfectly adequate image from the two images from each eye and I'm perfectly happy with that ... if you prefer to use the image from one eye only, that's your prerogative - if that works for you that's fine ...

This what is wrong with your set up because it goes against what all the top players do. If you're perfectly happen to carry on being a poor player then that is you prerogative as well.

please let's not start the "my high-break is higher than yours" stuff as you have previously done - it's very counter-productive to what is an interesting discussion ...

Only you (high break of 31) and nrage (high break of 26) have come forward so far to state you see the shot this way. Please stop this thinking that I'm getting at you for the size of your break and look at the logic of the situation as I have explained it according to dominant eye sighting theory, and maybe, just maybe you could change and do something about it.

Even if you don't believe in dominant eye theory you could at least give it go for an hour or so, as you have nothing to lose but an awful lot to gain if it works for you.

Give laverda a pm and ask him what he is experiencing and how his game is progressing and why.

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

I just did a dominant eye test and I am completely shook up. If we assume from the 3 scientific studies I read on-line that 70% of males have their dominant eye on their dominant arm side then if I matched that 70% my right eye should be dominant, or at least at 7 out of 10 odds.

Sure enough, the tests showed me my right eye is still dominant as it has been all my life. BUT...I KNOW I sight using my left eye and have done so for a number of years, at least from 2005, but before then I never thought about it and am not certain. So the question becomes (for me at least) 'how come I use my non-dominant eye to sight a cue?'

I think the answer is because I turn my head to the right for comfort this places the left eye closer to the cue but in looking in the mirror I'm only talking about perhaps 1/4" or so as I only turn my head about 10degrees to the right. So I dug out my SightRight and tried my normal set-up and I see a solid line out of the left eye and another less solid and broken line out of my dominant right eye.

So I tried moving the cue more to the left on my chin and placed it directly under my left PREFERRED SIGHTING eye and I ended up with a broken solid line out of BOTH eyes (damn! that didn't work!). Logically, this tells me I have forced myself to use my left eye as my preferred sighting eye however it appears moving the cue over more to the left to favour the preferred eye doesn't improve my sighting and in fact throws it off.

Conclusions:

1. 70% of right-handed snooker players will have a right eye dominance just like the general population.
2. From observing photos of the pros it looks like a good majority of the right-handed players turn their heads to the right, some just a little bit like Shaun Murphy, Hendry or Ronnie and some more (Joe Swail appears to turn his head about 45degrees).
3. All of these right-handed players of which 70% of them will be right eye dominant sight with their LEFT eyes.
4. It did say in the dominant eye article in relation to billiards (the in-depth study was done on baseball and cricket players who stand sideways to the line of the pitch) that a player can change his primary SIGHTING to his non-dominant eye with no adverse effects as far as they could measure, but normal vision he would still have the right eye as dominant.
5. So if we believe all this then why in the world would 70% of right-handed snooker players use their left eye for preference in aiming. There must be a reason why they do this (OK, except John Virgo who is an exception and cued almost under his right ear).
6. My belief is these players have turned their heads slightly to the right for COMFORT on the upper spine and in doing so have by preference and unconsciously started to use their left eye as their sighting eye. I don't know why this happens but none of these players have the cue directly under the left eye, just perhaps 1/4" to 1/2" closer to the left eye and perhaps their brains get a better aiming line out of that left eye.

I believe the SightRite device can be used to find where any player sees a solid line and this seems to happen (at least with me) at some unknown balance point somewhere between the two eyes. The billiards article did say although one eye is used for sighting the cue both eyes should be used as there is still a need for the true binocular vision.

Final Conclusion:

Snooker players in particular (along with other sportsmen like baseball and cricket players) tend to use their opposite eye for sighting and further conclude there can be different sighting and dominant eyes. Also, it does seem to help to have the cue closer to the preferred sighting eye but it's not recommended to attempt to move the cue more under the dominant eye as this may lead to neck strain.

So in fact, what you are saying may in fact be true if you meant getting the cue a little more underneath the SIGHTING eye (not the DOMINANT eye in all cases). This should be made a little clearer though as it certainly appears to me there is some percentage involved here and that a player shouldn't go for having the cue 100% directly under his sighting eye but just a little closer and this alteration should also not introduce any discomfort or if a SightRight (or similar) is available it should not introduce a broken line out of the sighting eye.

I think we're dealing with very small percentages here.

Terry

[j6uk]

I didn't know the guy but from his rep you might not of wanted him to talk you through much of anything after a night out
Regardless he inspired a generation..

I vaguely remember a video of Alex trying to teach another sport-pro (track runner?) how to play, ok it was not a pro-coaching session but I remember that Alex had difficulty explaining who he does things let-alone how the other guy needed to do things.
Alex the great cueist - yep, no contest
Alex the coach - hmmm...

[j6uk]

You said in your coaching introduction that you were 'never any good at pool or snooker'! You joined the navy at age 17 for 23yrs, then in your 40's you took up playing again while in the UK on the pro-am scene for a few years and won some tournaments..

Is the picture right?

j6uk:
Also, you are basing your statement on my skill level from when I was talking about me in the 1960's and well before I took snooker seriously. In the late 80's I lived in Britain and played on the pro-am circuit and I believe I was a much better player however I did quit the game for 10 years in the mid-90's and only started playing again in late 2005.
Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

Yes, I never got serious about snooker until just before I retired from the Navy. I came to Scotland to help my future wife get through physiotherapy college and I played full time on the pro-am circuit, first in Scotland and then the full circuit when we moved to Leicester. The pro ranks were closed at that time at 128. A little later they started having 'pro ticket' tournaments where the top 8 amateurs would play the bottom 8 pros for their tickets. I used to practice some with Willie Thorne when he called.

Also at that time Snooker Scene kept a top 100 amateur ranking list from tournament results on the pro-am circuit and I did manage to get to #30 in 1987 and I was ranked as #16 on the London & Home Counties ranking list. I won the Leicestershire County Champs in 1986.

As I was a good deal older than most of the other amateur players and failed to qualify in the top 8 at the end of the 3rd season we decided to go to Canada and I got a real job but still tried to play snooker and had a table in my house. The snooker was so poorly run here in Canada I quit around 1995 and then I got a job offer to work in the US in Virginia and didn't return to Canada until 2005, then took up serious snooker again as I became involved in the association and helped run it properly.

In 2008 I took my Master Coach training with Nic Barrow, in 2009 I took my Senior Coach training with Terry & Wayne Griffiths and also my Examiner training with Nic. I had retired from telecommunications in late 2007 as the general manager of a firm in Ontario and started coaching as a way to make pocket money and also certifying Master Coaches and I have done 5 of those so far, from Malaysia, Pakistan and Canada.

I never played terribly well before I joined the Navy and hardly played at all in the Navy (tough on a ship) until I got a little senior (LCDR) and had shore postings in Ottawa where I decided to give snooker a try again as I had always liked it and it kept me out of the bars. That period before the Navy was what I was referring to when I said I was never any good. I thought the article was quite clear but apparently you got the mistaken idea I meant my whole snooker career, which didn't start until 1985 or so.

The best I ever played was around 1986-87, even had a few nice high tournament breaks then but not 147s at least in a tourney.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

How about telling all of us what your record is? Most people on here relate any tournament victories they've had but you seem to be reluctant although you don't seem to be very shy with your comments and critical remarks.

Sort of like 'I'll show you mine, you show me yours' sort of thing

Terry

[alabadi]

I think Terry and Steve you need to call quits you both agree on certain things and not on others, so no matter what the other says you both will stick to your opinions.
that's fine everyone is entitled to say what they believe. no point just repeating the same thing over and over.

i declare a draw

[j6uk]

I would like to congratulate you for your snooker room, looks great. Its a bold ting to do. You must be very proud.

Yes this was all pretty much in your coaching intro terry, apart from Mr Thorn calling you for sparing sessions.
Well Its a remarkable story to be able to pick up a cue in you 40s, with no aptitude for the game, then within a year or two go on to achieve what you did in a foreign country. A bag load of 100 breaks and a 147 to boot, you must be chuffed to bits?! Hats off! Its unbelievable..
My story is more familiar to other players. Played on a 6' around 11/12, joined a club 14 and within a couple of years was making regular 30/40 breaks. Fife rd club became second home. 16 job and my first 50, year later 67 in a match six months later 100 in practice.. I had very good players to spar with and learn from and that helped greatly in my ability to pick out balls

I have no record to speak of. Just a handful of handycaps, handful on the continent, handful pool. Last 16 English amateurs, handful of good scalps 'and the best times' Prestatyn, really miss that place..
I guess I just never believed in myself

j6uk:

Yes, I never got serious about snooker until just before I retired from the Navy. I came to Scotland to help my future wife get through physiotherapy college and I played full time on the pro-am circuit, first in Scotland and then the full circuit when we moved to Leicester. The pro ranks were closed at that time at 128. A little later they started having 'pro ticket' tournaments where the top 8 amateurs would play the bottom 8 pros for their tickets. I used to practice some with Willie Thorne when he called.

Also at that time Snooker Scene kept a top 100 amateur ranking list from tournament results on the pro-am circuit and I did manage to get to #30 in 1987 and I was ranked as #16 on the London & Home Counties ranking list. I won the Leicestershire County Champs in 1986.

As I was a good deal older than most of the other amateur players and failed to qualify in the top 8 at the end of the 3rd season we decided to go to Canada and I got a real job but still tried to play snooker and had a table in my house. The snooker was so poorly run here in Canada I quit around 1995 and then I got a job offer to work in the US in Virginia and didn't return to Canada until 2005, then took up serious snooker again as I became involved in the association and helped run it properly.

In 2008 I took my Master Coach training with Nic Barrow, in 2009 I took my Senior Coach training with Terry & Wayne Griffiths and also my Examiner training with Nic. I had retired from telecommunications in late 2007 as the general manager of a firm in Ontario and started coaching as a way to make pocket money and also certifying Master Coaches and I have done 5 of those so far, from Malaysia, Pakistan and Canada.

I never played terribly well before I joined the Navy and hardly played at all in the Navy (tough on a ship) until I got a little senior (LCDR) and had shore postings in Ottawa where I decided to give snooker a try again as I had always liked it and it kept me out of the bars. That period before the Navy was what I was referring to when I said I was never any good. I thought the article was quite clear but apparently you got the mistaken idea I meant my whole snooker career, which didn't start until 1985 or so.

The best I ever played was around 1986-87, even had a few nice high tournament breaks then but not 147s at least in a tourney.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

I never included that I did play in the All-England twice and reached the last 16 of the Northern section twice and lost to Stefan Maczrocis (sp?) twice although I did beat Stefan just prior in the semis of the County champs.

Didn't like to practice with Willie all that much as he always had me break and I had to go 2 cushions into the back of the pack and then he would replace the pink and go for a 147 all the time. If he missed after a few reds we re-racked, but I did learn the ins and outs of break building on a good match table.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

I have developed over the past 2 days a method whereby I can absolutely determine if a student is sighting correctly. It involves a laser which I have here and when I have some time I will post a string with photos.

I tested it on myself and it's amazing and it will show any error in sighting to the width of the laser beam (which is damned small) so the accuracy has to be within 1mm and probably depends on how accurately the laser dot can visually seen on the centre of the tip.

It has nothing to do with dominant or preferred sighting eye but rather just checking to see if the student is actually aiming correctly. If that can be proven then any misses have to be down to not delivering the cue straight but I think it's a good idea to rule out any sighting problems first.

If I ever get over to Britain again I will bring this laser device with me although it's not all that expensive and coaches in Britain could get their own. It's actually a precision laser level.

Terry

[DeanH]

sounds interesting Terry, yep a series of photos would be great

[itsnoteasy]

Terry is it a drape laser(think that's what they are called)Cazmac was doing something with them,on a similar line, before he was mysteriously barred.