Another sighting/dominant eye question

[pcb]

come on terry , get the laser pictures out and we will all be knocking tons in , please hurry up mate

[hotpot]

Went to the club Today and tried what v max suggested , sighting with my dominant eye the right one . Also moved my cue to the right about half inch from center chin which i,ve alaways done . Have to say its the first time i,ve been able to play up and down the spots with power pretty consistantly . I feel as if i,m cueing a lot straighter and am confident playing center ball .

[chas6868]

Terry
Can you tell us more about the lazer set up, Ive been thinking about trying to get something like this set up on my table at home,to check the cue is on the line of aim.
I tried a bosch one before but it was hopeless

Chas

I have developed over the past 2 days a method whereby I can absolutely determine if a student is sighting correctly. It involves a laser which I have here and when I have some time I will post a string with photos.

I tested it on myself and it's amazing and it will show any error in sighting to the width of the laser beam (which is damned small) so the accuracy has to be within 1mm and probably depends on how accurately the laser dot can visually seen on the centre of the tip.

It has nothing to do with dominant or preferred sighting eye but rather just checking to see if the student is actually aiming correctly. If that can be proven then any misses have to be down to not delivering the cue straight but I think it's a good idea to rule out any sighting problems first.

If I ever get over to Britain again I will bring this laser device with me although it's not all that expensive and coaches in Britain could get their own. It's actually a precision laser level.

Terry

[sealer]

Went to the club Today and tried what v max suggested , sighting with my dominant eye the right one . Also moved my cue to the right about half inch from center chin which i,ve alaways done . Have to say its the first time i,ve been able to play up and down the spots with power pretty consistantly . I feel as if i,m cueing a lot straighter and am confident playing center ball .

Are you right handed or left?
Also what is the actual change in your pre shot routine when you say you sighted with the right eye.
I dont get the bit about moving the cue to the side? Could you explain please?
Glad to hear you can get it up and down with power hope it stays.

[Terry Davidson]

For goodness sake, I have a life outside of this forum. As I said when I get the time I will start a string with photos.

It is not a drapery laser. It is actually a precision level with a laser emitter at one end of it. If I lay it on its side by a top pocket and place the cueball on the yellow spot I can direct the last right to the centre of the cueball, just below the waistline of the ball.

It will be obvious when I post it. I will also post the brand name of the laser level.

Terry

[laverda]

As far as 'dominant' or 'preferred' eye theory goes I don't think it's necessary to align the cue more underneath that eye and players who still cue centre-chin would still be able to aim the cue correctly and to do that they probably use the preferred eye but where is there any proof that aligning the cue more under that eye automatically leads to better and more consistent aiming? I have never seen any proof that is so. I also think the most important thing in a snooker set-up is COMFORT and players should not compromise that comfort in order to chase after an unproven theory (even if vmax thinks it's proven to his satisfaction but doesn't have any REAL proof, just anecdotal evidence which I think is really caused by another factor).

Terry

I just wanted to say hats off to Terry. After the above post the other day I was ready to reply all guns blazing as I felt my experience was being dismissed by him and I sensed that there seemed to be a NEED or WANT for Steves advice to be wrong...

BUT

vmax:

I just did a dominant eye test and I am completely shook up. If we assume from the 3 scientific studies I read on-line that 70% of males have their dominant eye on their dominant arm side then if I matched that 70% my right eye should be dominant, or at least at 7 out of 10 odds.

Sure enough, the tests showed me my right eye is still dominant as it has been all my life. BUT...I KNOW I sight using my left eye and have done so for a number of years, at least from 2005, but before then I never thought about it and am not certain. So the question becomes (for me at least) 'how come I use my non-dominant eye to sight a cue?'

I think the answer is because I turn my head to the right for comfort this places the left eye closer to the cue but in looking in the mirror I'm only talking about perhaps 1/4" or so as I only turn my head about 10degrees to the right. So I dug out my SightRight and tried my normal set-up and I see a solid line out of the left eye and another less solid and broken line out of my dominant right eye.

So I tried moving the cue more to the left on my chin and placed it directly under my left PREFERRED SIGHTING eye and I ended up with a broken solid line out of BOTH eyes (damn! that didn't work!). Logically, this tells me I have forced myself to use my left eye as my preferred sighting eye however it appears moving the cue over more to the left to favour the preferred eye doesn't improve my sighting and in fact throws it off.

Conclusions:

1. 70% of right-handed snooker players will have a right eye dominance just like the general population.
2. From observing photos of the pros it looks like a good majority of the right-handed players turn their heads to the right, some just a little bit like Shaun Murphy, Hendry or Ronnie and some more (Joe Swail appears to turn his head about 45degrees).
3. All of these right-handed players of which 70% of them will be right eye dominant sight with their LEFT eyes.
4. It did say in the dominant eye article in relation to billiards (the in-depth study was done on baseball and cricket players who stand sideways to the line of the pitch) that a player can change his primary SIGHTING to his non-dominant eye with no adverse effects as far as they could measure, but normal vision he would still have the right eye as dominant.
5. So if we believe all this then why in the world would 70% of right-handed snooker players use their left eye for preference in aiming. There must be a reason why they do this (OK, except John Virgo who is an exception and cued almost under his right ear).
6. My belief is these players have turned their heads slightly to the right for COMFORT on the upper spine and in doing so have by preference and unconsciously started to use their left eye as their sighting eye. I don't know why this happens but none of these players have the cue directly under the left eye, just perhaps 1/4" to 1/2" closer to the left eye and perhaps their brains get a better aiming line out of that left eye.

I believe the SightRite device can be used to find where any player sees a solid line and this seems to happen (at least with me) at some unknown balance point somewhere between the two eyes. The billiards article did say although one eye is used for sighting the cue both eyes should be used as there is still a need for the true binocular vision.

Final Conclusion:

Snooker players in particular (along with other sportsmen like baseball and cricket players) tend to use their opposite eye for sighting and further conclude there can be different sighting and dominant eyes. Also, it does seem to help to have the cue closer to the preferred sighting eye but it's not recommended to attempt to move the cue more under the dominant eye as this may lead to neck strain.

So in fact, what you are saying may in fact be true if you meant getting the cue a little more underneath the SIGHTING eye (not the DOMINANT eye in all cases). This should be made a little clearer though as it certainly appears to me there is some percentage involved here and that a player shouldn't go for having the cue 100% directly under his sighting eye but just a little closer and this alteration should also not introduce any discomfort or if a SightRight (or similar) is available it should not introduce a broken line out of the sighting eye.

I think we're dealing with very small percentages here.

Terry

...to his credit he took the time to actually investigate and pursue some practical feedback regarding what is being discussed and was even willing to post his findings (unlike some other very vocal individuals on this thread - who no doubt will now chime in with why they have been too busy to follow through on what they promised).

Terry I know that you have not thrown your lot in and I'm not trying to make out that you are now in Steves camp but I personally appreciate your willingness to take the time to investigate things thoroughly... you've got my respect mate

Cheers
Mick

I'm excited to know more about the laser idea as well

[hotpot]

Are you right handed or left?
Also what is the actual change in your pre shot routine when you say you sighted with the right eye.
I dont get the bit about moving the cue to the side? Could you explain please?
Glad to hear you can get it up and down with power hope it stays.

Insted of putting my nose on the line of aim i am using my right eye instead and have moved my right foot to the left a bit , i,m right handed .

[j6uk]

Lol so you practiced with someone who, didn't let you pot a ball, basically?! Did you manage to pot a few balls or, 100 terry

j6uk:
Didn't like to practice with Willie all that much as he always had me break and I had to go 2 cushions into the back of the pack and then he would replace the pink and go for a 147 all the time. If he missed after a few reds we re-racked, but I did learn the ins and outs of break building on a good match table.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

Usually Willy would call me up about 2 weeks before a ranking tournament unless He had Cliff or another pro staying with him and who he could practice with. (I did note he never asked Cliff to break from behind though as Cliff has one game and wouldn't put up with that.)

Actually if Willy missed early on, like if I got lucky with the break, then I often got to make a few pots although the practice was mostly to his advantage as he also got a ball spotter out of the deal. Watching a good break builder also helped my game too, especially his shot selection and chipping balls off a tight pack.

Terry

[j6uk]

So you'd put your 2 year intensive development in you 40's, going for having not much of game to 100s and a 147, down to these experiences terry?
You must have lots of stories, did you become friends with cliff and are you still in touch?

Usually Willy would call me up about 2 weeks before a ranking tournament unless He had Cliff or another pro staying with him and who he could practice with. (I did note he never asked Cliff to break from behind though as Cliff has one game and wouldn't put up with that.)

Actually if Willy missed early on, like if I got lucky with the break, then I often got to make a few pots although the practice was mostly to his advantage as he also got a ball spotter out of the deal. Watching a good break builder also helped my game too, especially his shot selection and chipping balls off a tight pack.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

I think I gave you the wrong impression. While I was still in the Navy I got divorced for the second time and I decided to take up snooker seriously just to keep out of the bars. So I started with Joe Davis' book around 1975 or so and I was lucky to get some shore postings where I could practice. I had my first ton somewhere around 1978 and kept improving from there until I got out of the Navy in 1985 and moved to Scotland with my future wife and where I was playing much better players and really learned a lot.

To give you an example, I used to practice every day with the likes of John Ray, Murdo McLeod, Jim Allen, Jimmy McNellan, Jim Donnelly, Ken MacIntosh and even played Stephen Hendry in one tournament (on his match table of course). We moved to Leicester in 1986 when my new wife graduated from college.

So I played for around 3 years or so in my early 30's before I had my first century and around 5 years before I had my first century in a tournament.

Terry

[DandyA]

@vmax4steve

thanks for taking the time to reply to me in such detail, I do actually appreciate it ...

I popped down the pub tonight and had a quick mess about just with the cueball and a piece of chalk as the object ball ... and I did seem OK with the cue say 1" right of centre chin (as opposed to my normal 1/4") so much more under my dominant right eye although still not completely under it ala Jamie Jones ...

so I will try that when I'm next playing some friendly games ... not Monday evening as it's league night (pub 8ball pool) - it's only a local league but I'm played 24, won 21, lost 3 in league competition this season so I might not be quite as bad as you think

by the way, we're talking about sighting when down on the shot on this thread ... when standing up choosing the line of aim, I'm a big believer in trying to get my right dominant eye precisely on the correct line ... something I learned from TSF I wouldn't say I'm perfect at it but probably OK ...

sorry I'm talking about pool but I hardly ever play snooker these days since Riley's Staines closed just before Xmas ...

[j6uk]

Sure all those names you dropped have fond memories of you chipping away too terry.. Still pretty miraculous even starting in your thirties. Most regular century break makers start in there early teens, find they have some talent then its head down 5-7 years before they kind of master the white. Then its another few years until the results start to show.
Their are exceptions of course..
Funny old game ay

j6uk:

I think I gave you the wrong impression. While I was still in the Navy I got divorced for the second time and I decided to take up snooker seriously just to keep out of the bars. So I started with Joe Davis' book around 1975 or so and I was lucky to get some shore postings where I could practice. I had my first ton somewhere around 1978 and kept improving from there until I got out of the Navy in 1985 and moved to Scotland with my future wife and where I was playing much better players and really learned a lot.

To give you an example, I used to practice every day with the likes of John Ray, Murdo McLeod, Jim Allen, Jimmy McNellan, Jim Donnelly, Ken MacIntosh and even played Stephen Hendry in one tournament (on his match table of course). We moved to Leicester in 1986 when my new wife graduated from college.

So I played for around 3 years or so in my early 30's before I had my first century and around 5 years before I had my first century in a tournament.

Terry

[mr_rules]

I was wondering if anyone could advise me... i am a fairly good standard snooker player, from when i started at 14 through to 20 years old i cue'd under my left eye not realising that it was not my dominant eye, i made many centuries and 140+'s doing this. When i found out i was right eye dominant i then changed to cueing under my right eye (very awkward and uncomfortable) and made a 138 first frame, i therefore felt i needed to stick with this so i did for 6 months but was very uncomfortable and my form did suffer on most occasions. I have since then for the past 4-5 years just been trying to cue under the centre of my chin but i cant put my mind at rest so whenever i have a bad session i end up changing my cueing. Its now got to the point where i dont know where im aiming at because the angle looks so different from each eye and even when centre that im now completly shot of confidence.

Any advise or help would be much appreciated.

[j6uk]

What a unbelievable first post! Welcome

I was wondering if anyone could advise me... i am a fairly good standard snooker player, from when i started at 14 through to 20 years old i cue'd under my left eye not realising that it was not my dominant eye, i made many centuries and 140+'s doing this. When i found out i was right eye dominant i then changed to cueing under my right eye (very awkward and uncomfortable) and made a 138 first frame, i therefore felt i needed to stick with this so i did for 6 months but was very uncomfortable and my form did suffer on most occasions. I have since then for the past 4-5 years just been trying to cue under the centre of my chin but i cant put my mind at rest so whenever i have a bad session i end up changing my cueing. Its now got to the point where i dont know where im aiming at because the angle looks so different from each eye and even when centre that im now completly shot of confidence.

Any advise or help would be much appreciated.