Terry's Technique Video

[Sidd]

It's this driving through to the chest that's making your shoulder come into the stroke, so forget the grip hand finishing at the chest and just let the momentum of the stroke dictate the length of your follow through.

OK now Steve, my dear, enough is enough. you will have to tell me if you are a magician or a psychic How can you be so accurate with what is going on in my head when at the table. Yes you are so damn right !!! I do always think that perhaps my grip hand is not finishing in the chest and that is why I am not completing the stroke properly and always drive to drive the grip hand ot the chest to play with proper follow through. This thought has made me sort of over-follow through and yes now that I think about it after what you mentioned- this might exactly be why i am dropping elbow and bringing shoulder

So you are trying to say that I should not think of it and let the momentum of the stroke dictate the follow through. If that is the case then would that not mean that i will have a variance in my follow through for different shots ???? I play with longer back swing on all shots (almost all) so how should I go about it? Being the geek that I am I require some elaboration on this and the 'how to' element as well.

While down and playing the shot how to achieve this.... yes many times I can see my grip hand finishing near my chin rather than the chest LOL

[Sidd]

i had another day coaching yesterday, I me and the coach discovered that my cue action was somewhat peculiar, well he discovered it.

we are working on cueball position and understanding the path its going, I have been struggling with the different positions its been finishing up for the same height of shot.
we had a discussion and I felt that I was hitting the cueball higher than where I was addressing it on my follow through. I believed that I must be dropping my elbow too much and therefor raising the tip.

but after we did some routines and analysed my cue action he told me that as the cue comes back the butt raises, which he said is natural, then as I follow through the cue straightens out and I hit higher up the cueball than I was aiming at.

so instead of changing my whole setup to correct this we did some practice where I actually addressed the cueball slightly lower than I thought needed for the shot and the results were amazing. I was getting lots of consistency in terms of cueball control.

I find these coaching sessions very engaging, however I always leave thinking I haven't done anything new or in other words improved. hard to explain really.

before I came to this coaching session I had been playing absolutely rubbish over the last two weeks the worst I have played for a long time. yet all way through the coaching session I potted everything in sight. the coach told me he cannot see a problem with the way I pot and the way I play. yet I couldn't string 3 balls together in the games I played with my mates.

its like when you have a pain some where and as soon as you get to the doctor it disappears.

I'm coming to the conclusion that I have to accept that playing with less technical players drags your game down to their level, frames are always scrappy, most colours are never on their spots, most balls on the cushions tables are in poorer conditions...etc.

I need to start playing regular with players who are much better than me because I have reached stalemate, and need to get out of this rut.

Alabbadi

This is so true. Whenever you play with players lesser than your standard, your overall skill level might not be put in to play. Either play with better players or if there is no such option you can do what I do .... always give them some points as a handicap ... I would play with such players by giving them a handi of say 30 or even 50 if the opponent is really not that good. This keeps me motivated and I have a target so I really try to remain focused even while playing a player not that good.

[alabadi]

This is so true. Whenever you play with players lesser than your standard, your overall skill level might not be put in to play. Either play with better players or if there is no such option you can do what I do .... always give them some points as a handicap ... I would play with such players by giving them a handi of say 30 or even 50 if the opponent is really not that good. This keeps me motivated and I have a target so I really try to remain focused even while playing a player not that good.

Sidd

I don't think that it is a case of not being motivated to play, its the fact that some of these players play the game without any thought of technique position ect.
because of this they end up messing all the balls up and the frames become so scrappy, colours all at one end of the table, reds up the other. most colours on the cushions...etc.

so you end up with no rhythm, impossible to make a break of even 20, so I can easily lose without giving them points because I am trying to pot and split other balls, most often the shots ore difficult and I have to do more work on the cueball to get any sort of break going, and this leads on to missing pots and on occasions opening the balls for my opponent.

I think playing with those who play the game properly, you get better opportunities when their break ends because they are always trying to get position on the next red so if they miss you are more likely getting in with colours on their spots.

by the way Sidd I have been reading your post on the dropping the elbow and follow through. I had a coaching session and the coach was telling me to always make sure there is room between your grip hand and chest to allow follow through.
I sometimes was placing my bridge hand a bit far this meant at the address position my grip hand was inside the vertical, so if I had a medium to high power I had no room, the brain knows this ( a wonderful machine). so I ended up going beyond the chest to generate the power needed for the shot.

this meant that the cue was moving off line (sometimes lifting) and it created a lot of problems. so for me I need to make sure my bridge had is close enough to allow my grip hand to is vertical with enough room to my chest (4-5 inches) at the address position to allow a nice smooth and straight follow through. maybe you could check this is not happening to you

Alabbadi

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

Despite what vmax (and Chris Small too) say, you should accelerate through and beyond the cueball and in reality the grip should tighten on the butt when the back of the thumb hits the chest (or as close as you can get to that but after the strike). It is always best to complete every stroke in the same way but when you are playing a very low power shot like just rolling a ball in at pocket weight it does throw off the accuracy if you try and bring the grip hand solidly into the chest, but it should still reach the chest but a little slower because there is less acceleration in the first place.

It is only on these shots that you may complete the stroke differently but on anything above around P3 (out of power 10) you should drive the grip hand into the chest by keeping the acceleration going.

I believe the correct way for you to proceed is to get some solo practice and learn how to NOT drop the elbow on every shot, just work on bringing the grip hand into the chest but still keeping the elbow up. With your long backswing you will be dropping the elbow at the end of the backswing and at the very start of the delivery you should bring the elbow up to where it is in your address position and then KEEP IT THERE until the end of the delivery.

I'm working on this myself right now and it has made my potting much more accurate but I still try and bring the grip hand to the chest on everything but very low power shots.

For alabadi...you and your coach are correcting one fault by introducing another fault which will take coordination which will be difficult to control consistently. Surely the best method would be to eliminate the original problem (butt rising on the backswing) rather than introducing another variable. To keep the butt level on longer backswings you MUST allow the elbow to drop perhaps one inch and also allow the back 3 fingers of the grip to be pushed out of the way by the cue but they still remain in contact with the butt of the cue. On shorter backswings you must keep the grip flexible enough so the back 3 fingers can release. In my opinion it would be much better for you to work on keeping the cue on the same plane throughout the backswing and delivery.

Terry

[humperdingle]

Terry, I was just watching some Nic Barrows videos, looking at your technique. Did the Dartfish playbacks help you correct the issues shown?

[Terry Davidson]

I'm actually embarrassed about that video. I had just come back to playing after a 10yr layoff and Nic picked up 11 or 12 flaws which needed correcting. I've been working on them since then but there were so many the temptation was to work on 2 or 3 of them at a time and this caused me a lot of frustration until I got the discipline to work on just one at a time.

Also, I believe my main problem (which Nic did mention) was I was actually delivering the cue on my backswing. This meant no rear pause (which I've never had or been able to develop) but more importantly it meant I was actually delivering the cue with my upper arm rather than from the elbow acting as a pivot. It has only been recently and after using video analysis I realized my elbow was starting to drop right at the start of the delivery so I was using my shoulder muscle to deliver the cue.

I have managed to correct all the other items Nic found at that time except for the rear pause but I am just now working hard on just trying to keep the elbow up where it was at the address position and keeping it there until the very end of the delivery.

Just this one thing has led to much more consistently straight cue delivery and also a lot more accurate strike on the cueball and is starting to make a change in my game for the better. However, that video with Nic is 6yrs old now and it took me a long time to smooth out those flaws along with the additional serious flaw I found but which Nic didn't emphasize at the time so I left it until last when I should have worked on that first.

What I should have done with Nic is write down a list of the 11 or 12 things and then worked on them one at a time and then cross them off the list when I felt I had conquered them. That was definitely my bad and caused me a lot of frustration. I try and give my students a list now and tell them 'one at a time' until you've mastered it.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

Terry when putting in a back pause, I think you have to practice with follow through and a nice smooth stroke, all the time, until its second nature, then stun and screw can be introduced as I think there is more of a chance of snatching or movement with these shots . I'm sure Chris told me this , but I might just have made it up lol.

[vmax4steve]

Sidd:

Despite what vmax (and Chris Small too) say, you should accelerate through and beyond the cueball and in reality the grip should tighten on the butt when the back of the thumb hits the chest (or as close as you can get to that but after the strike). It is always best to complete every stroke in the same way but when you are playing a very low power shot like just rolling a ball in at pocket weight it does throw off the accuracy if you try and bring the grip hand solidly into the chest, but it should still reach the chest but a little slower because there is less acceleration in the first place.

Terry

Sidd

Coming from someone who also has issues with playing from the shoulder should tell you Sidd that this is not the way to go.
There is a very real tendancy to use the whole of the arm, including the shoulder when playing this way, when the ideal is to play only from the elbow.
Terry is right in that every stroke played must be played through the cue ball, but that is ideally achieved by having the grip hand only close completely after the cue ball has been struck, about a balls width beyond the cue ball and then the momentum of the stroke will dictate a natural follow through that will vary according to the power used.

Relying only on keeping the elbow high while still driving through to the chest on all strokes except for low power will compromise your follow through because the shoulder needs to drop the elbow on the backswing to keep the cue level all the way to the chest, and this will keep the tendancy to use the shoulder in your action from the get go.


It is not natural to use the same length backswing and follow through for all strokes and simply try to play with different strengths while keeping the length of the stroke the same.
The natural way to play any cue stroke is to subconsciously know the strength needed and simply open and close the grip hand in conjunction with movement only from the elbow, ie: open the grip hand on the backswing (a little when using low power, all the way when using high power and variables in between depending on the power used) and close the grip hand on the stroke until it completely closes after the cue ball has been struck.
Practise this and you will get to a point where a natural feel will come into your action as you let the cue do the work rather than the arm.
And another benefit from this is that your timing of focussing your eyes on the OB at the moment of the stroke could also follow a natural pattern in conjunction with the opening and closing of your grip hand as it moves the cue backwards and forwards and you will find that you won't need to deliberately focus for too long at a certain point in your action while playing a stroke that is overly long and unnatural.
In other words the difficulty you have in focussing on BOB at the moment of the strike could also be a result of your overly long and unnatural stroke.
Shorten it up, backswing length according to power in confunction with the opening of the fingers of the grip hand, which only closes completely about a balls width after striking the cue ball, follow through naturally according to power.

[Terry Davidson]

vmax (and Sidd):

Although I haven't recently analyzed a bunch of the top pros, if memory serves me right the majority of the best pros all have a longer backswing (Ronnie, Selby, Murphy, Higgins, Williams, etc.) and also all of them punch through the cueball and bring their grip hand to their chest.

Regarding the longer backswing only Dott comes to mind as he has a shorter backswing however he is probably the best example of bringing his grip hand into his chest on all shots.

My theory has always been if the majority of the best pros do something in common then it's most likely the best way to play and for sure most of them do punch the grip hand into the chest on any shots other than those dead weight roll shots.

Terry

[GeordieDS]

It's been a long time since i smoked a joint but reading this thread i think i'm going to have to roll one just to see if it makes more sense #hash

[Sidd]

Sidd

The natural way to play any cue stroke is to subconsciously know the strength needed and simply open and close the grip hand in conjunction with movement only from the elbow, ie: open the grip hand on the backswing (a little when using low power, all the way when using high power and variables in between depending on the power used) and close the grip hand on the stroke until it completely closes after the cue ball has been struck.
Practise this and you will get to a point where a natural feel will come into your action as you let the cue do the work rather than the arm.
And another benefit from this is that your timing of focussing your eyes on the OB at the moment of the stroke could also follow a natural pattern in conjunction with the opening and closing of your grip hand as it moves the cue backwards and forwards and you will find that you won't need to deliberately focus for too long at a certain point in your action while playing a stroke that is overly long and unnatural.
In other words the difficulty you have in focussing on BOB at the moment of the strike could also be a result of your overly long and unnatural stroke.
Shorten it up, backswing length according to power in confunction with the opening of the fingers of the grip hand, which only closes completely about a balls width after striking the cue ball, follow through naturally according to power.

Well yes i guess I am again forgetting to focus on BOB at the time of stroke and that might be the real dilemma because that is the most important thing to do to get the pot. However, for not bringing the shoulder and not dropping the elbow I think I shall have to concentrate on keeping it up as high as possible.

Closing and opening of the grip hand hmm well I think I do that naturally but have never thought about its timing. I stopped concentrating about closing it on impact as there is a tendency to grip too tight while doing so. So I now try to make my palm touch the butt at address and then this way I can feel more meat on the grip and also after hitting CB I can still feel my hand's full purchase on the butt... remember I am playing with an outward wrist cock as well so trying to get a hold of the hold

As for the back swing length... well I need to analyse it further before changing it strength=back swing length technique or else i might again fall in to pieces. I used to play with variable backswing length before but then I switched ot this full length back swing thing I gather by constantly watching ronnie's game. But i have noticed that lesser back swing when in the balls gives you more potting accuracy no doubt about that.

[Sidd]

vmax (and Sidd):

Although I haven't recently analyzed a bunch of the top pros, if memory serves me right the majority of the best pros all have a longer backswing (Ronnie, Selby, Murphy, Higgins, Williams, etc.) and also all of them punch through the cueball and bring their grip hand to their chest.

Regarding the longer backswing only Dott comes to mind as he has a shorter backswing however he is probably the best example of bringing his grip hand into his chest on all shots.

My theory has always been if the majority of the best pros do something in common then it's most likely the best way to play and for sure most of them do punch the grip hand into the chest on any shots other than those dead weight roll shots.

Terry

In the words of Dennis Taylor, you are 'spot on' here Terry.

I know this for sure that almost all of them use the longer backswing these days. The old school (Griffiths) suggests variable back swing length but the modern manner is the longer one and constantly consistently longer on all shots (except of course for low power shots). Also I think Hendry used to play with variable back swing length throughout his career.

I was watching Judd (I have started watching him these days for trying to ingrain not to drop the elbow on any shot) and he is, mind you, tremendous in this regard that he would not let the elbow drop even on a shot of power 9/10 played with deep screw. I was watching his 120 plus break at the Bulgarian open and noticed the following:

1. He plays with a longer back swing, even when in the balls his cue tip almost touches the V of the bridge on back swing.
2. His elbow would not drop no matter what power he plays . he can take deep screws full table length (we all know his cue power) without dropping the elbow.
3. He does not seem to have a long long follow through, just a few inches and that is the case even on high power shots.

In fact points 2 and 3 above are inter-related i.e. his follow through is just a few inches and not really long cuz he does not drop the elbow... Or he does not drop the elbow on any shot and so his follow through is not long

I have also observed that he accelerates the cue for power required and not through the back swing. Also he drive his grip hand in to the chest... !!!

[itsnoteasy]

I have a longish back swing naturally, but wish i didnt, its not very good for any shot below medium pace, it can get a bit of a wobble if i am not really really careful as deceleration is a curse with it, now i rather play stun run through than table weight shots, i am going to spend a few days changing it i think, to a varied one, also its no good off the cush, and its its terrible for long bridge shots over some balls, and those long bridge ones off the cush, i at least want to have the choice in my game.

[Terry Davidson]

itsnoteasy:

You can keep the longish backswing as it really is the way to go but you must slow it down to the point where you can positively control it and keep it straight all the time ('remember my adage...80% - maybe 90% of delivery problems are initiated in the backswing')

Now in saying that I can remember I was doing a coaching session with Nic Barrow who advocates using a long backswing all the time and then I noticed on very low power shots (say P2/P3 out of P10) his own backswing was much shorter and I think in reality most players will use an adjustable length of backswing dependent on the power they want.

The adjustable backswing is what Terry Griffiths teaches but my problem is I note most of the top pros use a longer backswing (think Selby, Ronnie, Murphy and Higgins) and my thought is if the top pros do something in common then it is very likely the best way to do it. On the other hand they have been using the longer backswing for years and likely from when they were 10yrs old or so and are quite used to it, and for certain their backswing is perfectly straight and well controlled. I also note all of them have quite a slow backswing and I think this is necessary to keep it controlled and straight.

When you play off the cushion you have to shorten everything up anyway but in saying that watch Selby when he shoots off the cushion and you will see he has his fingertips on the edge of the rail so he can use a slightly longer backswing even off the cush.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

As for the back swing length... well I need to analyse it further before changing it strength=back swing length technique or else i might again fall in to pieces. I used to play with variable backswing length before but then I switched ot this full length back swing thing I gather by constantly watching ronnie's game. But i have noticed that lesser back swing when in the balls gives you more potting accuracy no doubt about that.

You have said before that you had your highest break of 67 playing naturally, but that inconsistancy made you start to tinker with all the aspects of your cue action.
You have found out many times that your inconsistancy was caused by you simply taking your eyes off BOB at the moment of the strike.
Knowing this it's time for you to go back to your natural action and remember to focus on BOB at the moment of the strike.

All this tinkering has gotten you nowhere, you change one aspect of your game and find yourself having to do something else to offset that and so on and so on.
Driving the cue through to the chest every time has introduced your shoulder into your stroke, so now you are having to concentrate on keeping the elbow high while still driving into the chest.
Giving yourself a long backswing on all shots and relying on steady pace throughout the stroke has probably taken away your feel for the strength of the shot as well as your natural timing of hand and eye.
I'm guessing that everything now feels forced and mechanical and you end sessions drunk with too much thought.

You are not Ronnie O' Sullivan, you are not Judd Trump, so never mind what they do. They play the way that's right for them and have all day to solo practise, you do not as you are a working father who plays recreationally. You used to play inconsistantly but made your highest break with your natural action and all that was needed was to find the one thing that was stopping your progress, not to change everything about your game.

My advice to you is to back to your natural game and find a way of not allowing anxiety when approaching a big break, or taking a dolly shot for granted, make you take you eye off BOB at the moment of the strike, for that is the one thing that was holding you back.