Nic Barrow video

[itsnoteasy]

How to play long straight stop shots.(sorry can't to links), this video is on YouTube just now, it's not the video that I am asking about but Nics technique , when he's down on the shot look at his elbow against the background , on the back swing, his elbow drops, this has always been said as something to avoid, but if you do do it(which I do very slightly just like him) it must return to the original position, which his clearly doesn't (neither does mine) so is this a fault or not?
Another thing is ,I thought on the forward stroke your elbow is not supposed to drop until after the cue ball has been played, it seems to me he has a continuous , even,drop of the elbow all the way through the forward stroke, am I seeing this right, I realise its a timing thing and I could be seeing this part of it wrong. Can I also ask, is his elbow drop too exaggerated? It seems it to me, this is not posted to call Nic into question, just for my own curiosity, and game.

[bolton-cueman]

he drops his elbow on the back swing to keep the cue as horizontal as possible. Keeping it in place and the cue will rise.

I think Nic is a believer that 'the elbow should never drop' is a myth

[itsnoteasy]

Bolton this is what I do but when I joined this site I asked about this and was told not to do it, and the elbow should be kept high , also the elbow not dropping on the way forward is what he teaches to his coaches so I'm not too sure that's correct.
Better explain the first bit, I had said that as I pulled the cue back it left my chin because the cue obviously gets thinner, and to keep it on the chin and the elbow still I would have to raise the butt, I was told to do this as it was only a few mill, and it was better to keep it in contact with the chin, even though it does do that now my elbow drops, exactly the same amount as his in the video, and does not return , I always thought this was a minor fault in my cue action this is why I am asking.

[bolton-cueman]

There's another Nic video on YouTube where he's doing a Dartfish overlay of his cue action and a students and his commentary definitely says he drops his elbow on his back swing to maintain the level of his cue - mainly to illustrate the errors his student was making... I'll try and find it

[itsnoteasy]

If you could that would be great, it's something that has always niggled a bit with me.

[itsnoteasy]

he drops his elbow on the back swing to keep the cue as horizontal as possible. Keeping it in place and the cue will rise.

I think Nic is a believer that 'the elbow should never drop' is a myth

Sorry just been thinking, it's opening the grip that allows the cue to remain on the same plane, isn't it?

[bolton-cueman]

Sorry just been thinking, it's opening the grip that allows the cue to remain on the same plane, isn't it?

I'm not a coach at all, but opening the grip does reduce the lift, but its physically impossible not to raise the butt if the elbow doesn't drop

[Terry Davidson]

itsnoteasy:

The primary and ONLY function of elbow dropping is to keep the cue on the same plane and almost parallel to the bed of the table. When Nic uses a longer backswing (as in these stop shots demos, but I haven't seen them) he has to drop his elbow near the end of the backswing in order to keep the cue on the same plane. The drop is small, usually only an inch or so.

Now, during the delivery after a long backswing Nic's elbow will return to where it was in the address position and (hopefully) stay there until after the strike and then it will start dropping again but just in order to keep the cue level and not to achieve more follow-through. Ronnie does the same thing.

However, with myself and some of my students I've found if I try and do what Nic does (dropping the elbow in the delivery) it tends to start dropping earlier and earlier in the delivery until with me it was happening right before the time of strike and that will take the butt off-line as I seem to be unable to drop my elbow straight down as Nic and Ronnie (and Joe Davis and Tony Knowles too) do and did.

Then I watched Trump, Dott, Ronnie, Murphy, Selby and a few other pros in the PTC in Germany and I just watched for how and when they do drop their elbows. I had always though Ronnie dropped his elbow early in his delivery but in this last tournament, just like the rest of them, he didn't drop the elbow at all on probably 98% of his shots and he only dropped it on power shots whereas the rest of them didn't drop the elbow at all. (The last black he played after he had won the match was a big power shot and he dropped his elbow but missed the black completely, so it may creep up on him too.)

I also noticed Trump pulls his cue into his chest and gets his elbow very high in the address position (like Steve Davis does and did in his prime) and it will drop about 1in on a longer backswing but on delivery it returns to that high position and stays there and most of the others were doing that too. So this not dropping the elbow is followed in common by most of the pros and I think it's the way to go for accuracy.

In fact, you gain almost nothing by dropping the elbow and should only do it when you're really accelerating the cue at top power and then it only comes into play to keep the cue level. Do not drop it at all for normal shots and I think you''ll find your accuracy will improve but don't fall into the trap I did and allow that drop to 'creep up' in your delivery, because it's a real bitch to try and get rid of, as I'm finding out right now.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

To be honest Terry I try not to think about it much on the follow through, I just stay still and the cue kind of tells my arm what to do(that's a ridiculous description but I hope you know what I mean) it was more on the backswing, I have now watched Nic on dartfish on an overlay with Francesco, and his arm does in fact return to its original position before the strike on those videos , as you say it does only drop a little(as does mine) I will have to check if mine returns(I only have an old tape camcorder so it's hard to see some things)

[Terry Davidson]

itsnoteasy:

STOP!!! Don't even worry about the elbow drop on the delivery unless you think it's happening too early. If it happens after the strike then it's not generating any problems but if you start thinking about it you just might get messed up like I did.

This all started with me about 5 years ago when I thought I wasn't following through enough as I was clutching the cue. So I started unconsciously over-compensating by dropping the elbow and getting tons of follow-through but I lost virtually all my accuracy. In a tournament I was nervous about being able to make a straight in pink and in fact did miss a few of them.

If you keep your grip nice and relaxed through the strike and don't tighten it at all from the time you start your delivery you will find you'll have to start the acceleration slowly (otherwise the cue will slip in the hand) and build it up and the follow-through will become natural and if you keep the back 3 fingers just barely touching the cue at address and at the end of the backswing the punch through the cueball will be a lot more crisp and you will tighten the back 3 fingers after the strike and your elbow won't drop by much at all unless you are really powering through the ball.

It's an automatic thing, as I've recently found out.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

Cheers Terry, you are right I wouldn't change anything now, if I am not playing well its me ,not doing what I have been shown properly. My grip had to be tightened in a way, as I had a gap in it, now the thumb and forefinger are round the cue nicely and the cue just sits on the rest and it opens and closes much more naturally and smooth now, I very rarely nip the cue on the way through now. It was just that I had noticed Nics arm drop on the back swing and my cue action is almost identical and I thought this was just a bit off , so thought I would ask. I don't have a big drop like he does on the follow through, I don't think I could time it that well, and even if I could unless it was absolutely needed, I don't think I would, too much for my liking.
A relaxed grip and smooth follow through are one of the three main things to cueing right , the other is centre line aiming, and staying rock still,for me that's basically it, although I could be miles off here. I think all other problems stem from one of these three fundamentals,

[SonicWave]

Watch the top players, cue is not aligned with head. As Terry said its automatic. Sight the ball with head and eyes, allow the body to do what it wants. It knows what to do.

(in the correct positions)

[SonicWave]

Talking 80s before they had to know how to go to the toilet too..

[sydneygeorge]

Watch the top players, cue is not aligned with head. As Terry said its automatic. Sight the ball with head and eyes, allow the body to do what it wants. It knows what to do.

(in the correct positions)

You have " Nailed it " SonicWave.

[bolton-cueman]

If you could that would be great, it's something that has always niggled a bit with me.

finally found teh video

its not on Youtube, i have it as a wmv on my PC - can send you a link for you to download

Cheers!