A discussion on Dropping the Elbow

[itsnoteasy]

I get a lot of pain if I play several power shots in a row trying to keep the elbow from dropping on delivery. To the point I could not play the day after. It is very uncomfortable.

i have never heard of pain in the cue arm ace man, is it tension based, stopping the cue arm abruptly?

[Sidd]

Itsnoteasy: Yes indeed I guess Alabadi has answered it correctly. Hence whenever i said dropping elbow and dropping shoulder; both were meant differently.

Just as a test, imagine this: Lets see an extreme or full follow through based power shot. Break the follow through in three pieces. the first bit will be completed alone by the elbow ... then it will proceed a bit further with the forearm (elbow drop) and then finally it will carry on but forearm job is completed by that time and you can only push it further by dropping the shoulder, which is done by releasing it from its joint/ball/socket whatever it is. Now all this is incorrect and not to be done but I just wanted to make a point as to how i ruined my game in the past due to watching Ronnie. Yes Ron does drop his elbow even when in the balls but as Terry says he learnt to play like that since beginning and can coordinate his movement.

I ruined myself up in this business and now that I know ... I was actually doing this whole affair. So on days when I was in form meant that I was dropping my elbow forearm shoulder in line and was getting results but then on days when I was a bit off I could not coordinate this whole and kept wondering what the hell just happened I played fairly very well. This also is the reason why I would play 5 frames quite excellent and then in the next three I will go down the drain. the reason is that with that marginal tiredness that creeps in after playing 6 frames in a row, you get a little exerted if not tired and then keeping this coordination becomes uneasy. I did not know so and kept on experimenting with many things till I got myself totally screwed.

I have found out the solution to my problem and will now practice on getting it right hopefully pretty soon. the solution was pretty simple but i could not get to it before. I was having my forearm ahead of vertical in address and hence I was destined to drop the elbow even if i did not want it to ! What I have done to correct this is:

Keep myself half way boxers just slightly. I now twist my hip to the right while going down. and I moved my grip hand nearer to the butt and now I grip it with one inch on the butt end... This made my forearm vertical on the shot in address and hence I have more room for my follow through i.e. from grip hand position to the chest... So now when i do my regular follow through to the chest my elbow will not drop as much as it did before due to my forearm not being vertical and hence allowing it to drop to complete the shot automatically.

Last word: elbow drop is a mess as it highly compromises accuracy. You will play better with it once fresh but as soon as a bit tired or off the coordination goes all haywire.... best solution: try to find the stance and position in your set up, like I finally did, that allows you not to drop it or at least allows you to keep it minimum; even on power strokes

[cyberheater]

Gawd. Another thing to remember.

Here is the list so far:-

Imagine shot in your head. How much power. Where do you need to hit the white. What position do you want the white to finish up.
Site shot from distance.
Walk in line of aim.
Drop down on cue with cue to chest.
Make sure you've got as light grip as possible.
Front pause, look at white to check you are going to hit the white where you want to hit it.
Look at object ball at the exact point you wish the white to make contact.
A couple of feathers. Front pause. Slow back swing. Back pause.
With eyes firmly on object ball and keeping body as still as possible. Deliver cue through smoothly and don't drop the elbow.
Make sure fist hits chest.

Anything I've missed out.

[Byrom]

Yeah one more thing - Whatever you do - Do not over think it

[itsnoteasy]

Itsnoteasy: Yes indeed I guess Alabadi has answered it correctly. Hence whenever i said dropping elbow and dropping shoulder; both were meant differently.

Just as a test, imagine this: Lets see an extreme or full follow through based power shot. Break the follow through in three pieces. the first bit will be completed alone by the elbow ... then it will proceed a bit further with the forearm (elbow drop) and then finally it will carry on but forearm job is completed by that time and you can only push it further by dropping the shoulder, which is done by releasing it from its joint/ball/socket whatever it is. Now all this is incorrect and not to be done but I just wanted to make a point as to how i ruined my game in the past due to watching Ronnie. Yes Ron does drop his elbow even when in the balls but as Terry says he learnt to play like that since beginning and can coordinate his movement.
I ruined myself up in this business and now that I know ... I was actually doing this whole affair. So on days when I was in form meant that I was dropping my elbow forearm shoulder in line and was getting results but then on days when I was a bit off I could not coordinate this whole and kept wondering what the hell just happened I played fairly very well. This also is the reason why I would play 5 frames quite excellent and then in the next three I will go down the drain. the reason is that with that marginal tiredness that creeps in after playing 6 frames in a row, you get a little exerted if not tired and then keeping this coordination becomes uneasy. I did not know so and kept on experimenting with many things till I got myself totally screwed.

I have found out the solution to my problem and will now practice on getting it right hopefully pretty soon. the solution was pretty simple but i could not get to it before. I was having my forearm ahead of vertical in address and hence I was destined to drop the elbow even if i did not want it to ! What I have done to correct this is:

Keep myself half way boxers just slightly. I now twist my hip to the right while going down. and I moved my grip hand nearer to the butt and now I grip it with one inch on the butt end... This made my forearm vertical on the shot in address and hence I have more room for my follow through i.e. from grip hand position to the chest... So now when i do my regular follow through to the chest my elbow will not drop as much as it did before due to my forearm not being vertical and hence allowing it to drop to complete the shot automatically.

Last word: elbow drop is a mess as it highly compromises accuracy. You will play better with it once fresh but as soon as a bit tired or off the coordination goes all haywire.... best solution: try to find the stance and position in your set up, like I finally did, that allows you not to drop it or at least allows you to keep it minimum; even on power strokes

Sidd that is not a snooker shot you have described, to me that's just a lunge lol, control is king, hitting the ball with that much power is very very rarely needed, if at all, and if you feel it is needed I would suggest its the shot before that went wrong as you are way out of position lol. It's only a twelve foot table, if the table didn't end I reckon that shot would stop after a couple of miles.
Cyber heater, easy ain't it lol.

[humperdingle]

Instead of trying to whack the ball harder, Sidd, try hitting with more accuracy either further up or down on the cueball... Powershots - at least for amateurs - generally work out far less successfully imo.

[itsnoteasy]

Totally agree Humpy, when I first started Pottr told me ,maximum reaction for minimum effort, and he's right.

[Sidd]

Sidd that is not a snooker shot you have described, to me that's just a lunge lol, control is king, hitting the ball with that much power is very very rarely needed, if at all, and if you feel it is needed I would suggest its the shot before that went wrong as you are way out of position lol. It's only a twelve foot table, if the table didn't end I reckon that shot would stop after a couple of miles.
Cyber heater, easy ain't it lol.

I totally agree with you and humper ... no question about it... that is why I said it isnt correct but just wanted you to imagine how elbow drop is done by forearm and then the shoulder joint I used ot do that for simple power shots but as I learnt more I have stopped doing that and being sloppy

And yes I agree that if during a break such a shot arises that needs more power then your last shot went wrong in terms with position :0)

[ace man]

i have never heard of pain in the cue arm ace man, is it tension based, stopping the cue arm abruptly?

On faster shots, as my hand hits the chest, the forearm also meets my bicep...after several of these in a row, elbow hurts on every single follow through to the chest. It is not like tennis elbow, but very annoying. If I don't think about anything when playing and just let the elbow drop naturally, none of this occurs, ever.

[CoachGavin]

Just one thing though if you don't drop your elbow. The elbow will probably need to drop slightly for most players but only a small amount. If the elbow doesn't drop at all the lower arm acts like a pendulum and the grip will go up into the player's ribs, creating a snatch and short follow through. Forget about the elbow and concentrate on cueing through straight and following the cue plane.

[Sidd]

Just one thing though if you don't drop your elbow. The elbow will probably need to drop slightly for most players but only a small amount. If the elbow doesn't drop at all the lower arm acts like a pendulum and the grip will go up into the player's ribs, creating a snatch and short follow through. Forget about the elbow and concentrate on cueing through straight and following the cue plane.

Very right indeed.

I think what happens to Ron is what you have stated. When in the balls his elbow just slightly drop at the end and too naturally. I am of the opinion that a slight elbow drop to complete the follow through is natural however some players like Judd do not drop it at all even at the end is cuz their setup is such that gives them a complete follow through without the drop.

What one needs to find out is what gives one the foremost ability to cue straight; with witht eh elbow drop or without and hten one can stick to it.

For instance, I have found out that mine drop a bit at the end but then Steve and Terry helped me in figuring this out My forearm was not vertical at address and in fact forward to vertical in the direction of the shot and therefore when I completed my follow through the elbow had to drop- common sense yeah! So I now grip the butt nearer to its end point i.e. just an inch from the butt end and hence my forearm is vertical enough and this way I have a minimised elbow drop

[alabadi]

Yes indeed I guess Alabadi has answered it correctly. Hence whenever i said dropping elbow and dropping shoulder; both were meant differently.

The solution was pretty simple but i could not get to it before. I was having my forearm ahead of vertical in address and hence I was destined to drop the elbow even if i did not want it to

you got it Sidd, I found out that I drop my elbow even on low power shots, I mentioned it in a coaching session and the coach after looking at me told me that my forearm was inside the vertical and because there was not enough room to have the follow through that I had already decided, the only way to get it was to go beyond the chest and this meant dropping the elbow.

it introduced 2 things:

1- The tip of the cue would rise and therefore hit the cueball higher than intended. when my form was good and I dropped it straight down and inline it didn't make much difference to the pot. however, I didn't get the cueball position expected, this use to baffle me because I kept thinking it should be somewhere else.

2- Going past the chest sometimes meant I was coming round it, this made my arm come out a bit and introduced movement from right to left, in doing so putting un-intentional spin on the cueball. this led to either missing the pot due to throw in particular on shots over 2 feet, or again getting bad position because the cueball taking a different path and when it hits a cushion I could clearly see that I put side on.

I am now working hard to keep my forearm vertical as you said Sidd by moving the grip back a bit or it can be achieved by shortening the bridge. as long as the distance between the grip and the bridge is constant.

I am also trying to hit the same spot on my chest on every single shot no matter what.
so in solo practice I stick a bit of gaffer tape on my chest in the position I need my grip hand to hit, this helps me feel when I have hit that spot.

Alabbadi

[Sidd]

you got it Sidd, I found out that I drop my elbow even on low power shots, I mentioned it in a coaching session and the coach after looking at me told me that my forearm was inside the vertical and because there was not enough room to have the follow through that I had already decided, the only way to get it was to go beyond the chest and this meant dropping the elbow.

it introduced 2 things:

1- The tip of the cue would rise and therefore hit the cueball higher than intended. when my form was good and I dropped it straight down and inline it didn't make much difference to the pot. however, I didn't get the cueball position expected, this use to baffle me because I kept thinking it should be somewhere else.

2- Going past the chest sometimes meant I was coming round it, this made my arm come out a bit and introduced movement from right to left, in doing so putting un-intentional spin on the cueball. this led to either missing the pot due to throw in particular on shots over 2 feet, or again getting bad position because the cueball taking a different path and when it hits a cushion I could clearly see that I put side on.

I am now working hard to keep my forearm vertical as you said Sidd by moving the grip back a bit or it can be achieved by shortening the bridge. as long as the distance between the grip and the bridge is constant.

I am also trying to hit the same spot on my chest on every single shot no matter what.
so in solo practice I stick a bit of gaffer tape on my chest in the position I need my grip hand to hit, this helps me feel when I have hit that spot.

Alabbadi

I find myself in the same boat on this Alabadi. Seems like the same thing. How I got in to it, no idea, but now that I know its flawed, I am also working on correcting it. I have noticed that by keeping my grip hand near the end of the butt my elbow drops just a little bit and that seems natural.

Could you explain the statement highlighted in Red above a bit more please ??? How do you propose shortening the bridge but still keeping distance between bridge and grip constant?

[alabadi]

I find myself in the same boat on this Alabadi. Seems like the same thing. How I got in to it, no idea, but now that I know its flawed, I am also working on correcting it. I have noticed that by keeping my grip hand near the end of the butt my elbow drops just a little bit and that seems natural.

Could you explain the statement highlighted in Red above a bit more please ??? How do you propose shortening the bridge but still keeping distance between bridge and grip constant?

well its just logical, lets say you have a 12 inch bridge, and you wanted to shorten it to lets say 9 inches, if you keep the grip hand in the same position your grip arm will be behind the vertical. as it is in effect like you have moved your grip hand 3 inches back. so to keep it vertical you would move your grip hand forward 3".

so once you have found your ideal address position that allows you to have a vertical forearm. you should keep that distance. so when playing shots that are tight like on the cushion shots where you have to move your grip hand up the cue, shorten the bridge to keep that vertical.

what I was doing as mentioned in my other post I was inside the vertical, so shortening the bridge for me allowed my forearm to get to the vertical.

[mythman69]

When people think of the elbow drop on delivery they are thinking about the classic one like Joe Davis or Tony Knowles (and apparently Nic Barrow) and that is 4" or more, and that is very tough to coordinate.

Here you go Terry . . .

Length Of Table Screw Shot by Nic Barrow