Nic Barrow's latest gadget.....

[jrc750]

.....I probably played 30 games over Christmas with a high break of 18....Tried the line up tonight and out of 25 attempts my best was 15.....

....and I think that 50 is right around the corner.

Hope your right, but if only scoring 15 in a line up i doubt you can score a 50 in match conditions.
I didn't do the line up much but i could score 60 or 70 easily enough, still took me a couple of years to get my 1st 50 in a match situation

[j6uk]

i'd like to see these pics because iv not 'noticed' it. you say its public knowledge but does ronnie know about it? you believe this is kinda how he would say he holds the cue when playing a shot?

This grip has been noticed in several photos and videos of ROS and mentioned in several other threads.
All public knowledge, nothing "insider" about it

[coomsey76]

I think these might be the kind of pictures Dean is on about j6......

[j6uk]

thanks cooms, so what do we see, is he really doing what been proposed above and what's become common knowledge on tsf?

[vmax4steve]

thanks cooms, so what do we see, is he really doing what been proposed above and what's become common knowledge on tsf?

Well it does look like his forefinger is relaxed all through the stroke, from backswing to follow through, so it maybe that it doesn't grip the cue as much as the middle two fingers, and as his little finger opens almost off the butt on the backswing, the middle two or maybe just the middle finger only therefore must be doing the majority of the gripping.
That's what it looks like but no one really knows the extent of pressure from certain fingers throughout the entire cue action. I doubt that he knows himself, just simply does it without any thought like most of us do.

I have the belief myself that if anyone needs to be taught everything from scratch then they have very little chance of being any good at the game. Too much to think about all the time so therefore never in a relaxed state of mind.
I hope for Les' sake that the grip is the one issue he has that's holding him back.

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

I got Ronnie's grip from watching videos of him but also from a famous coach who did tell me he will normally use the middle 2 fingers with the forefinger off the cue (which is obvious in all the videos). This coach spent a year (off and on) with Ronnie.

If you hold your arm at your side with the wrist hanging straight down you should see that the middle 2 fingers are in a straight line with the forearm bone which actually drives the cue. A player's grip can be of any configuration he likes as long as it's comfortable and he doesn't change the configuration during the delivery.

In Ronnie's case the forefinger only comes onto the cue at the very end of his long backswings but it sure looks like the main grip on the cue comes from the 2nd and 3rd fingers.

In Les' case I had to find a way to break him of his habit of having the wrist joint and fingers pointed towards the cueball and he also had the back of the hand tight on the butt of the cue at address. This severely limited his ability to follow-through at all and combine that with cueing up at least 2" behind the cueball it meant he was 'stabbing' the cueball on every shot. In this case I decided to experiment a bit to see if we could get Les to have his wrist joint hanging straight down with the grip relaxed and tip up against the cueball.

When Les tried this he was able to cue much straighter and drive through the cueball somewhere around 5" or so which was about 4" more than he had been getting. He was making some very good long pots during the 3 practice frames we had. Using Nic's recorder we were also able to confirm the length of backswing (still a bit too short) and also the length of follow-through and I was happy with the results we saw and so was Les.

I would expect once Les learns how to keep the wrist hanging straight down when gripping the cue he might start using his forefinger however he did note it actually felt funny to him to have the wrist straight down as it felt it was well behind the vertical and actually felt bent backwards but it wasn't.

Terry

[j6uk]

i believe ron knows exactly, though knows not to think about it and keep it neutral. to me the energy of every stroke is coming from the front of the hand, maybe it could be confirmed by a member..

Well it does look like his forefinger is relaxed all through the stroke, from backswing to follow through, so it maybe that it doesn't grip the cue as much as the middle two fingers, and as his little finger opens almost off the butt on the backswing, the middle two or maybe just the middle finger only therefore must be doing the majority of the gripping.
That's what it looks like but no one really knows the extent of pressure from certain fingers throughout the entire cue action. I doubt that he knows himself, just simply does it without any thought like most of us do.

[j6uk]

its a good thing les has someone whos passionate about the game like yourself tel, and i hope you can somehow get him up and running..
for me its not obvious what your saying you see when watching osullivan. terry please tell me/tsf the name of the famous coach who told you personally that ron 'grips' the cue mostly with his middle two fingers?

j6uk:

I got Ronnie's grip from watching videos of him but also from a famous coach who did tell me he will normally use the middle 2 fingers with the forefinger off the cue (which is obvious in all the videos). This coach spent a year (off and on) with Ronnie.

If you hold your arm at your side with the wrist hanging straight down you should see that the middle 2 fingers are in a straight line with the forearm bone which actually drives the cue. A player's grip can be of any configuration he likes as long as it's comfortable and he doesn't change the configuration during the delivery.

In Ronnie's case the forefinger only comes onto the cue at the very end of his long backswings but it sure looks like the main grip on the cue comes from the 2nd and 3rd fingers.

In Les' case I had to find a way to break him of his habit of having the wrist joint and fingers pointed towards the cueball and he also had the back of the hand tight on the butt of the cue at address. This severely limited his ability to follow-through at all and combine that with cueing up at least 2" behind the cueball it meant he was 'stabbing' the cueball on every shot. In this case I decided to experiment a bit to see if we could get Les to have his wrist joint hanging straight down with the grip relaxed and tip up against the cueball.

When Les tried this he was able to cue much straighter and drive through the cueball somewhere around 5" or so which was about 4" more than he had been getting. He was making some very good long pots during the 3 practice frames we had. Using Nic's recorder we were also able to confirm the length of backswing (still a bit too short) and also the length of follow-through and I was happy with the results we saw and so was Les.

I would expect once Les learns how to keep the wrist hanging straight down when gripping the cue he might start using his forefinger however he did note it actually felt funny to him to have the wrist straight down as it felt it was well behind the vertical and actually felt bent backwards but it wasn't.

Terry

[lesedwards]

Well it does look like his forefinger is relaxed all through the stroke, from backswing to follow through, so it maybe that it doesn't grip the cue as much as the middle two fingers, and as his little finger opens almost off the butt on the backswing, the middle two or maybe just the middle finger only therefore must be doing the majority of the gripping.
That's what it looks like but no one really knows the extent of pressure from certain fingers throughout the entire cue action. I doubt that he knows himself, just simply does it without any thought like most of us do.


I have the belief myself that if anyone needs to be taught everything from scratch then they have very little chance of being any good at the game. Too much to think about all the time so therefore never in a relaxed state of mind.
I hope for Les' sake that the grip is the one issue he has that's holding him back.

I was working on the grip yesterday and I am going to have to really work at it. i cannot seem to find a way to get the grip set when getting down on the line, always messing with it when I am down on the line which throws my feathering off and my aiming. Looks like Ronnie might have his index finger overlapped over his middle finger. My index finger I feel causes me all the problem with steering the cue off line.

[j6uk]

now now les lol..

before this game blows your top and you end up ripping the table apart with your bare hands and try shoving it out the window piece by piece.. i would follow this mantra. your welcome

I was working on the grip yesterday and I am going to have to really work at it. i cannot seem to find a way to get the grip set when getting down on the line, always messing with it when I am down on the line which throws my feathering off and my aiming. Looks like Ronnie might have his index finger overlapped over his middle finger. My index finger I feel causes me all the problem with steering the cue off line.

[Terry Davidson]

Les:

Dammit...do NOT start playing with the grip as that's how you get yourself into trouble all the time. It's really very simple to achieve and you should not be copying Ronnie but rather finding and using a grip that works specifically for you.

First of all just let your left arm hang loosely by the side of your left hip with the wrist joint hanging STRAIGHT DOWN. Have all 4 fingers hanging straight down too. Now, keeping the wrist joint hanging loosely and straight down curl the 4 fingers so they form a bed for the butt of the cue. Now using your right hand place the butt of the cue into the bed of the 4 fingers and close the fingers so the butt is against the web between the thumb and the forefinger, but not with a lot of pressure. That is the configuration of your final grip.

Now get down into the address position and have your son look at your left hand and wrist. Confirm it's hanging STRAIGHT DOWN and not pointed forward towards the cueball. It can even be a bit behind the vertical (bent slightly AWAY from the table) if you need to do that to get the web down on the cue (the back of your hand does not need to be on the butt of the cue when in the address position).

Now, DO NOT CLOSE THE HAND AT ALL and do some slow feathers along the baulkline. What should happen is as you get to the rear of your backswing the cue should push into the web and the back 2 or 3 fingers should be actually pushed out of the way by the butt of the cue and your 3rd finger (trigger finger) should have its pad just lightly touching the butt at the end of the backswing but at this point the actual hold on the butt is between the top of the forefinger and thumb (the forefinger should be very lightly curled around the butt BUT EXERTING NO PRESSURE).

As you deliver the cue the wrist joint should stay neutral and hanging straight down and also the thumb should be pointed straight down too, however in your case you should be using the middle 2 fingers to accelerate the cue BUT WITHOUT CLOSING THEM OR APPLYING ANY PRESSURE. The reason for this is to allow you to drive through the cueball rather than having the forefinger tighten on the cue which results in the stabbing you were doing and deceleration of the cue.

For goodness sake DO NOT THINK YOU CAN START CHANGING THINGS BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU FEEL YOU ARE OBSERVING WITH RONNIE (and don't try to out guess your coach). I'm absolutely certain Ronnie's forefinger does not overlap his 2nd finger but it is up a bit from the 2nd finger and is more loose on the butt than his 2nd and 3rd finger. Your main objective is NOT to copy Ronnie but rather find a grip which is relaxed and allows you to punch through the cueball or in other words a grip that works for Les Edwards specifically.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

For some reason unknown to me Les finds it impossible to have his wrist joint relaxed and hanging straight down. This is why I asked him to hold the cue with the middle 2 fingers as they are more in line with the forearm bone driving the cue and it stops Les from bending his wrist joint forward towards the cueball (Willie Thorne used a grip similar to this).

When Les bends the wrist forward like that it severely limits his acceleration through the cueball and it also makes him drop his elbow right at the start of the delivery instead of using the elbow like a hinge. In addition he grips the cue too tight when doing this and has the back of his palm tightly on the butt of the cue.

As his coach I had to try and find something or some grip or hold configuration which would allow him to loosen his grip but still be able to control the cue. The problem Les has is he doesn't believe he can control the cue properly as he's become used to 'steering' the cue using his peculiar tight grip.

Using the new grip configuration Les took on about 6 long pots to partly closed pockets during our practice frames and made every one of them. He was getting instant gratification from a positive change but I can already see where he has tried it once today and found he is having trouble with it because he can't INSTANTLY get it right without my help. LES...keep trying, it takes time to learn a new bit of technique.

Also, j6uk...the coach who told me about Ronnie's grip was Nic Barrow who had a contract with and coached Ronnie for a year a little while ago. I've also been told the same and shown coaching videos by a coach even more famous than Nic. My question to you is why is the name so important? Did you think I was making all that up about Ronnie's grip? If you look at the photos of Ronnie posted on this string even, you can obviously see his forefinger is up above his 2nd finger in the address position. It works for him and just maybe it will help Les get over his problem of stabbing the cueball.

I know you coach youngsters, or at least you've said so on here, but try coaching someone older like Les, who has his own opinions of what he needs to do and promptly goes about changing things he has just been shown will improve his technique because he is not getting instant improvement. With youngsters you have a clean slate to write on and they learn quickly and do more often see immediate improvement but I'm afraid it's just not so with older players (not just Les).

Terry

[lesedwards]

j6uk:

For some reason unknown to me Les finds it impossible to have his wrist joint relaxed and hanging straight down. This is why I asked him to hold the cue with the middle 2 fingers as they are more in line with the forearm bone driving the cue and it stops Les from bending his wrist joint forward towards the cueball (Willie Thorne used a grip similar to this).

When Les bends the wrist forward like that it severely limits his acceleration through the cueball and it also makes him drop his elbow right at the start of the delivery instead of using the elbow like a hinge. In addition he grips the cue too tight when doing this and has the back of his palm tightly on the butt of the cue.

As his coach I had to try and find something or some grip or hold configuration which would allow him to loosen his grip but still be able to control the cue. The problem Les has is he doesn't believe he can control the cue properly as he's become used to 'steering' the cue using his peculiar tight grip.

Using the new grip configuration Les took on about 6 long pots to partly closed pockets during our practice frames and made every one of them. He was getting instant gratification from a positive change but I can already see where he has tried it once today and found he is having trouble with it because he can't INSTANTLY get it right without my help. LES...keep trying, it takes time to learn a new bit of technique.

Also, j6uk...the coach who told me about Ronnie's grip was Nic Barrow who had a contract with and coached Ronnie for a year a little while ago. I've also been told the same and shown coaching videos by a coach even more famous than Nic. My question to you is why is the name so important? Did you think I was making all that up about Ronnie's grip? If you look at the photos of Ronnie posted on this string even, you can obviously see his forefinger is up above his 2nd finger in the address position. It works for him and just maybe it will help Les get over his problem of stabbing the cueball.

I know you coach youngsters, or at least you've said so on here, but try coaching someone older like Les, who has his own opinions of what he needs to do and promptly goes about changing things he has just been shown will improve his technique because he is not getting instant improvement. With youngsters you have a clean slate to write on and they learn quickly and do more often see immediate improvement but I'm afraid it's just not so with older players (not just Les).

Terry

Terry, I am not going to change what you showed me. I have never potted long pots like I did at your place. I could feel me just drive them home. I am just trying to find away to get my hand in the right configuration every time. Going down to work on shortly and have my cam ready to shoot a few videos.

[j6uk]

i believe you believe, but i don't believe. i believe he wraps all the finger around the cue and his middle two fingers are simply the bed for the cue. no gripping going on what so ever.
if your gonna quote another coach or player, its only seems right that you give the name after the quote. no?

oh and who was the even more famous coach than nic that said ron grips with his middle two fingers?

j6uk:
Also, j6uk...the coach who told me about Ronnie's grip was Nic Barrow who had a contract with and coached Ronnie for a year a little while ago. I've also been told the same and shown coaching videos by a coach even more famous than Nic. My question to you is why is the name so important? Did you think I was making all that up about Ronnie's grip? If you look at the photos of Ronnie posted on this string even, you can obviously see his forefinger is up above his 2nd finger in the address position. It works for him and just maybe it will help Les get over his problem of stabbing the cueball.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

The other famous coach asked me not to publicly say I've seen his training videos and analysis of a lot of the best pros.

Another point...you advocate the 'circle' grip using forefinger and thumb and teach all your students that is the proper and only correct grip (or so you've said). A coach has to realize the grip will never be 'one size fits all' and your circle grip may not be right for some players. Just look at a few of the pros...Ronnie keeps his forefinger up higher than the other fingers, Steve Davis has experimented with using the back 3 fingers and keeping the forefinger right off the cue and said he likes the grip (although I'm not certain if he's still using it or not but he used it a few years back when he beat John Higgins in the Worlds last 16) and the big one was Alex Higgins who had his forefinger pointed straight down, the same as his thumb.

Virtually every great pro has a different grip and I believe every player should find what works for him and then use it consistently. You might have the right grip for YOU but it ain't necessarily the right grip for everyone.

Oh, and believe what you want regarding Ronnie's grip however it just doesn't matter because that grip is right for Ronnie but not might be right for most other players out there. Or else look Ronnie up sometime and show him your grip and see if he likes it for himself.

Les:

This is what you should do:

1. Wrist joint hanging straight down but not rigid. (You might even experiment with having the wrist bent slightly backwards which will give you the 'snap' and put more stuff on the cueball and more drive through).
2. The grip for you should be primarily the 2nd finger but the other 3 fingers should be on the butt.
3. Slow backswing to where you like your 'trigger' finger (3rd finger) to be with the end pad just touching the butt.
4. Wrist should be cocked outward away from the body a bit with the cue laying on the middle pad of the 3rd finger.
5. Butt should be lightly against the web with no air gap.
6. Drive the grip hand through to the chest (mentally picture hitting the OB with the tip).
7. Stay down and still at the end of the delivery.

Practice this with no ball, cueing slowly along the baulkline making certain you are cueing straight in both the backswing and delivery (although the cue tip may go a little to the right as the grip hand hits the chest, don't worry about that).

If you are getting around 3hrs practice per day then give this new grip configuration AT LEAST 2 weeks before you go off again and try and alter something (in fact keep at it until Jan 25th at least). Remember, loose grip, slow backswing, drive through.

Terry