Can't get through the lineup - tips and ideas

[j6uk]

i'd back nic up regarding the run-through but only in terms to having one, you must have a forward game because it opens up your positional options.
bomber, if you take anything from me take this: start doing the reds on the lineup in sequence, then do the max and, if your up for it, touching a cushion after every pot

[thelongbomber]

i'd back nic up regarding the run-through but only in terms to having one, you must have a forward game because it opens up your positional options.
bomber, if you take anything from me take this: start doing the reds on the lineup in sequence, then do the max and, if your up for it, touching a cushion after every pot

I'm open to any ideas. So in sequence from below the black to the blue (cushion if needed)? How many reds below the black, by the way? And how many reds between blue and pink/pink and black?

[Stupree]

Can't get through the lineup - tips and ideas

The line up is a good exercise and a great challenge for players. I have observed many players get straight on the table and head straight in to the line up which for many players can be far too big a drill to start off with.

For a while I was a fan of starting with a red spread to get me cueing well but I found this to be too loose for me and left me not really focusing on getting good position because I regularly had an 'out' shot available. A few months ago I started working on a series of simple yet effective drills using just six reds and a cue ball. These are quick to set up and are useful for players just starting the game or for players at all levels to improve and calibrate their action for a match or a good practice session. I am releasing these as a series of free downloads as I commit them to packs. The first one is available at the link below for those who'd like to give it a go as a warm up before going for the line up.

http://www.stuartgrahamcoaching.co.u...utines-pack-1/

[j6uk]

I'm open to any ideas. So in sequence from below the black to the blue (cushion if needed)? How many reds below the black, by the way? And how many reds between blue and pink/pink and black?

i like to do 4/6/5 or 5/6/4, meaning 4/5 below the black. and unless i'm going for a max i like to pump as many pinks into the middle as possible, as well as play up to three recovery shots, just to make it interesting.

[itsnoteasy]

Just got back from the club and had another session. Was going great and then got interrupted by one of the regulars. Was on 11th black!!!! Asked him kindly to seat and wait for me to finish, made the red, and then ended up 1 inch from the black! ARGH!!!

Seems I struggle with knowing if I should stun, screw, or stun run the cue ball. Especially early in the lineup, any of these can be used. Is there a recommendation on which to play first? Stun and screw as primary preference and stun run being the 3rd option? Would you say that using the cushion is a "backup" plan and indicates that you are attempting to come back into position that way?

I think Nic Barrow prefers to drop balls in with soft top spin and controlling via length of the back swing, but I'm not a fan of that approach as it seems to be less precise. I find myself using stun, screw, and stun run a lot more and have more cue ball control that way.

There can't be a recommendation as to what shot to play as that totally depends where the white is and where you want it to be next shot.
I would say if you can do eleven reds and eleven black you know what shot to play, one shot I learned to play that stops the cue ball getting away form you and keeps it in the box is the above centre stun shot ,it narrows the angle of the white and is a very handy shot to have.

[thelongbomber]

There can't be a recommendation as to what shot to play as that totally depends where the white is and where you want it to be next shot.
I would say if you can do eleven reds and eleven black you know what shot to play, one shot I learned to play that stops the cue ball getting away form you and keeps it in the box is the above centre stun shot ,it narrows the angle of the white and is a very handy shot to have.

Thanks for the feedback. I will try that. I actually rarely use that shot and maybe that's missing from my toolbox.

[ace man]

What worked for me:

- leave yourself high on the black or high on the pink (this sorts possible cannon problem)
- play 2 cushion position if you leave yourself too high on the black, don't try to baby the ball it might not reach the pocket
- prefer stuns and screws to stay on the same side of the table if possible (the less cueball movement, the better)
- prefer stun run through as opposed to slow roll dead weight shots, especially into middle pockets (I admit that I only recently started using this shot, no real control yet)

[thelongbomber]

I was at the club again last night and started to notice some patterns now that I have been doing the lineup for a few sessions. First, I found that my stun run was fairly inconsistent in getting good cue ball position.

To work on this, one thing I have done is to slow down my final backswing and while doing that focus my eyes and mind more on where I wanted the cue ball to end up, "feeling" where it will land while before striking. This is a technique I have used previously and discovered through trial and error. It provides very accurate cue ball control without missing the pot. I use the feathering to ensure the pot, before I do this.

I actually believe now that on some cases, the stun run isn't the best shot to use [for me] as you can't get perfect cue ball control. With more pace I end up missing the pot a little more often. I now understand better why classical theorists on snooker suggest that this game is more stun and screw.

One other pattern I also discovered was more clarity around when to pot black vs pink and instantly recognizing - sometimes a few shots ahead - where I was going to land into trouble. In that sense, the lineup is a superb tool for break building as it removes a lot of the unkowns.

I agree with your 2nd recommendation about avoiding trying to "drop" the object ball in and found as well that I miss more often.

Also agree with your 3rd recommendation about staying on the same side.

I experimented more with above centre , soft run shots and found I was pretty accurate with it - especially when coupled with my cue ball control method explained above.

One other thing I found as well is that in the latter stages of the lineup when you have 6 or so reds, you end up doing more with the cue ball and using the cushions more to gain position, and so the lineup has the secondary benefit of learning about advanced cue ball control.

Overall, in the lineup, for those trying, initially, it's mostly stun and screw on pinks and using the top cushion on blacks, and then as you get through it, more cushion play for the last 6-8 reds. Very good practice overall for understanding the finer points of cue ball control and ball striking.

One area I still have difficulty is with the reds below the black. I can get the first two below the black fairly easily with the first ball in hand, and the second straight in with screw and reverse side, but the other two are considerably more difficult. FYI, I place 4 reds below the black, 5 between black and pink, and 6 between pink and blue.

[itsnoteasy]

You don't want to be straight on any red below the black LB, IMHO ,I play a little bit high and it's just stun off bottom Cush to get a bit high on the black, soft stun off bottom Cush to get a bit high on next red etc etc, I found this so much easier than playing slightly low on the reds, but that is much preferable than being straight, for me anyway.
Will add I only play two reds below the black or three if I'm playing well, unfortunately it's two just now lol.
I didn't mean above centre stun run, above centre and come off the bottom Cush and white back up on the same side, this is a very good way of not getting action on the white and it narrows the angle it comes back up the table a handy shot if just that bit off on the black.

[lesedwards]

I envy all you guys. I put almost all my attention into just making the pot with maybe 10% on position, anymore and I miss the pot. I tried just 4 reds between the pink n black and 23 was my best in that specific 20 minute routine. I have my own mid 1920's Burroughs n Watts table and spend 2 hours a night frustrating myself. I sent out an email this morning to a billiard tech to have my pockets changed. Just out of curiously next time you guys are at the club take 2 measurements for me. One across the fall of the corner pocket, if you don't understand just take a tape measure and measure straight across cushion to cushion where the ball falls off the slate and then take one of the side pocket. My corner pockets are 3-1/2" and my sides are 4-1/2". This will be interesting. I have found since I put this table in 6 months ago my game has gone from not bad to very poor. I had a high break in a match of 43 the week before I went from my old 5x10 snooker table to my 6x12 Burroughs n Watts. I think my high break since is 21. Confidence is so low that I have developed this very tentative stab. I am afraid to hit it because anything to hard will not go it unless it is dead in. I got our qualifiers where the pockets are like bushel baskets and my cue action is now so bad I am even lost on a loose table. Terry wants me to really open the pockets so I can pot some balls and build confidence. I can't wait to hear your replies with measurements.
I have attached a couple photos to compare with.

[DandyA]

Confidence is so low that I have developed this very tentative stab. I am afraid to hit it because anything to hard will not go it unless it is dead in.

if there is anything I'm trying to learn, it's to play the cueball confidently ... regardless of whether it's a 100% pot or a 10% pot ... if it's a 10% pot, still try to play it confidently and you'll get it 10% of the time or maybe more if you're playing well ... tentatively stab at it and you're almost guaranteed to get it 0% of the time ...

it's nothing to do with the width of pocket drops although 3.5 inches for the corner pocket sounds like club standard to me ... it's about getting on the right line of aim and delivering the cue confidently and straight down that line of aim ...

[lesedwards]

if there is anything I'm trying to learn, it's to play the cueball confidently ... regardless of whether it's a 100% pot or a 10% pot ... if it's a 10% pot, still try to play it confidently and you'll get it 10% of the time or maybe more if you're playing well ... tentatively stab at it and you're almost guaranteed to get it 0% of the time ...

it's nothing to do with the width of pocket drops although 3.5 inches for the corner pocket sounds like club standard to me ... it's about getting on the right line of aim and delivering the cue confidently and straight down that line of aim ...

World Snooker corners are 3-1/2 possibly a hair larger, club pockets are 3-5/8" to 4" Terry just sent me photos of his pockets, 4" corner and 8" side. I had A friend of mine over which is a past Canadian Champion his high run for the day was mid 30's he could not believe how tough the table was. This is coming from a guy who runs centuries in our qualifiers. For me it has everything to do with the width of the pocket. When you practice hour after hour and you try things such as a little line up and the majority of the time I am lucky to run 16. Cliff was saying when he was here a lot of the guys practiced on tables with over sized pockets to build confidence and also to work on position and not be so concerned with potting the ball. If you spend hour after hour practicing and you keep missing what good does this do for your confidence.

[thelongbomber]

I envy all you guys. I put almost all my attention into just making the pot with maybe 10% on position, anymore and I miss the pot.

Les, one thing I suggest is to simply have faith. Don't worry so much potting the ball at all. I know that's not going to make sense, but just trust me. Get your mind off it. Just get down into what you believe is the correct line of aim, feather until it "feels" right and it "feels" like you are going to make the pot. Your sight together with your feathering will provide the initial "will I pot this?" feedback to you. Once it looks and feels right, pause momentarily at the cue ball, and then before the final backswing and execution, just release your mental focus off the pot completely and think instead of straight cueing wherever you just feathered. The slow backswing, will also give you a feeling for the cue ball control. This is something I do on lower percentage shots from time to time if I'm not cueing properly. You need to understand, to some degree, you can't really change whether you will pot the ball or not once you are down on the shot. If you walk in "offline" then you are more than likely not going to pot the ball anyways unless you swerve your cue action "into" line during the final stroke - not recommended, but it can be done.

It's another possibility that you are not walking correctly into the line of aim to begin with. One thing you should do is test your aiming line and this can be done with a camera or with a partner. The way to do this is to walk in and get down on a pot (3/4 pink for example), and then stop at the cue ball. Don't move. Let a partner see you from the other side of the cue ball (ie facing you and looking through the object ball and into the cue ball to see if you are in the correct position. What they should be looking for is whether your cue is pointed at the correct line of aim. What the partner/camera needs to see from this viewpoint is to find out if you would actually make the object ball given the line of aim you just got into. If it looks "off" or too "thick" or "thin", then that's a fundamental issue that can be worked out by working on your wak in process.

The most amazing thing about potting is that if you stop thinking about it after feathering, and start thinking how the cue ball will react off the object ball and where it will stop, you will make the pot anyways. There is an x-factor in potting which is our natural ability to feel and our hand eye coordination. Trust it, develop it, and be aware of it, and it will serve you well.

Regarding others being lucky, and you not being, it's important to understand that nothing in the game is magic. Everything can taught and learned if you just start accepting that you can change and learn and adapt and use your own feedback mechanisms to self-learn.

Record some videos from various angles (behind you, in front, etc) and let's have a look.

[DandyA]

World Snooker corners are 3-1/2 possibly a hair larger, club pockets are 3-5/8" to 4" Terry just sent me photos of his pockets, 4" corner and 8" side. I had A friend of mine over which is a past Canadian Champion his high run for the day was mid 30's he could not believe how tough the table was. This is coming from a guy who runs centuries in our qualifiers. For me it has everything to do with the width of the pocket. When you practice hour after hour and you try things such as a little line up and the majority of the time I am lucky to run 16. Cliff was saying when he was here a lot of the guys practiced on tables with over sized pockets to build confidence and also to work on position and not be so concerned with potting the ball. If you spend hour after hour practicing and you keep missing what good does this do for your confidence.

oh well, I was only trying to help Les ... I assume the friend you're talking about is Cliff Thorburn so I'm certainly not going to disagree with one of the snooker greats

I think my point still remains though, I certainly always strive to hit the cueball confidently having found out, through experience, that tentative stabs don't work ...

[lesedwards]

Les, one thing I suggest is to simply have faith. Don't worry so much potting the ball at all. I know that's not going to make sense, but just trust me. Get your mind off it. Just get down into what you believe is the correct line of aim, feather until it "feels" right and it "feels" like you are going to make the pot. Your sight together with your feathering will provide the initial "will I pot this?" feedback to you. Once it looks and feels right, pause momentarily at the cue ball, and then before the final backswing and execution, just release your mental focus off the pot completely and think instead of straight cueing wherever you just feathered. The slow backswing, will also give you a feeling for the cue ball control. This is something I do on lower percentage shots from time to time if I'm not cueing properly. You need to understand, to some degree, you can't really change whether you will pot the ball or not once you are down on the shot. If you walk in "offline" then you are more than likely not going to pot the ball anyways unless you swerve your cue action "into" line during the final stroke - not recommended, but it can be done.

It's another possibility that you are not walking correctly into the line of aim to begin with. One thing you should do is test your aiming line and this can be done with a camera or with a partner. The way to do this is to walk in and get down on a pot (3/4 pink for example), and then stop at the cue ball. Don't move. Let a partner see you from the other side of the cue ball (ie facing you and looking through the object ball and into the cue ball to see if you are in the correct position. What they should be looking for is whether your cue is pointed at the correct line of aim. What the partner/camera needs to see from this viewpoint is to find out if you would actually make the object ball given the line of aim you just got into. If it looks "off" or too "thick" or "thin", then that's a fundamental issue that can be worked out by working on your wak in process.

The most amazing thing about potting is that if you stop thinking about it after feathering, and start thinking how the cue ball will react off the object ball and where it will stop, you will make the pot anyways. There is an x-factor in potting which is our natural ability to feel and our hand eye coordination. Trust it, develop it, and be aware of it, and it will serve you well.

Regarding others being lucky, and you not being, it's important to understand that nothing in the game is magic. Everything can taught and learned if you just start accepting that you can change and learn and adapt and use your own feedback mechanisms to self-learn.

Record some videos from various angles (behind you, in front, etc) and let's have a look.

Thanks for all the great advice. That was well wrote and yes makes a lot of sense. Just one thing on confidence, about a month ago I had a guy call me and wanted to know if I would be interested in a playing partner and he had a table so I took him up on the offer. His table was a Brunswick Anniversary model with big pockets. I noticed right off the bat this guy was a very good player as he took me 3 games straight but as we played I started to make a few pots and realized they went in real easy. By the end of the night he never won another game. I was making pots and playing great positional shots. The game had become fun and you could actually make a pink off its spot in the side pocket something that is virtually impossible on my table. I could not wait to get home and text Cliff and tell him how I played. I went down to my table the next night and by the end of the night I was right back to square one like I had never played before.