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  • Steve Davis said

    on the BBC yesterday that no coach has ever turned a bad player into a good player. I know where he's coming from, you have to have the basics in position first, you have to have good hand and eye co-ordination first and foremost otherwise no matter what any coach tries to get you to do all advice will be lost on you if you don't do certain things naturally. You have to be able to pot a ball without any need to actually think about all the mechanics of stance, grip, arm and elbow otherwise you're a lost cause.

    I have tried teaching those who don't do the basics naturally and it's very very difficult to firstly get across what the basics of natural hand/eye co-ordination are and why it matters so much, let alone getting them ingrained in someone who just doesn't do any of them.
    That's on a one to one basis down the club where I can actually show them, on this website getting the same things across using only the printed word, not being able to actually show someone what they do wrong and physically demonstrate the correct way seems a lost cause and you find yourself endlessly repeating the same mantra over and over again with no idea if what you say is actually being taken in and practised.

    The recipient of any advice cannot show, even by posted video, just what aiming process they use, where they look at what time during the aiming and shooting process as it's not possible to see their eye movements.
    Sure you can use kinovea and slow down the video and check for any head, body, arm movement prior to the delivery of the cue, but where they're looking will always be an unkown to both the online coach and the pupil as I know from personal experience that one can firmly believe that ones eyes are looking where they should at every stage when in fact they're not.

    For this reason my mantra of 'hitting what you look' at as the first basic of hand/eye co-ordination cannot be shown to be true on an online forum, and those who don't do it naturally will never be able to do it anyway so I shall take on board what Steve Davis says and post no more advice.

    My last parting shot is to take in what the commentators say when a pro misses an easy ball, "He took his eye off the pot"

  • #2
    Originally Posted by vmax4steve View Post
    I know from personal experience that one can firmly believe that ones eyes are looking where they should at every stage when in fact they're not.
    Vmax I can vouch for you on this point, as I have been trying to do this now on a consistent basis for the last 6 months. and I still haven't mastered it.

    yes we look at the OB and do so when we feather and as we deliver, however I have found myself questioning what I was looking at when I have missed.

    in solo practice I try and recall "did I hit what I was looking at?" and on many occasions I can't honestly say I did. I was looking at the object ball but when I try to look in my minds eye what I did I can't, so over the last 3 weeks when I do my solo practice I have now started to question every shot and try and recall "have I hit what I was aiming at" its got me to focus more on the shot.

    I am terrible at following the cueball with my eyes and I now know when I do it, its not as easy as it sounds to keep eyes glued to the contact point especially at my age, however, I'm getting better at it and results are starting to be more consistent now.
    Last edited by alabadi; 1 May 2014, 09:35 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally Posted by vmax4steve View Post
      For this reason my mantra of 'hitting what you look' at as the first basic of hand/eye co-ordination cannot be shown to be true on an online forum, and those who don't do it naturally will never be able to do it anyway so I shall take on board what Steve Davis says and post no more advice.
      That is a shame because I have learnt a lot from you and follow your advise.

      I can understand what Davis said about no coach has ever turned a bad player into a good player but he is missing the point. There are a lot of folks like me who have improved a lot by steady application of practise and following the good advise on this forum.
      I know I haven't got the raw talent of Hendry or O'Sullivan but at the tender age of 48 I am playing the best snooker of my life and am improving all the time.

      So please. Reconsider. Good advise it good advise and although it might not turn a bad player into a great player. It can turn someone who is willing to apply themselves but lack basic information into a better player. Surely reward enough.

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      • #4
        Originally Posted by cyberheater View Post
        That is a shame because I have learnt a lot from you and follow your advise.
        Thanks but I have no more advice to give than that already given and I am fed up with constantly repeating myself. The forum has a search engine that new people can use so any advice I have already given is always there.

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        • #5
          Originally Posted by vmax4steve View Post
          when a pro misses an easy ball, "He took his eye off the pot"
          Ronnie did this the other day... got down for a 'bread and butter' shot, glanced 90 degrees to the baulk area then took the shot... missed by a distance!

          Presumably if you feel you have to look away, get up, realign and start again.

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          • #6
            Originally Posted by vmax4steve View Post
            Thanks but I have no more advice to give than that already given and I am fed up with constantly repeating myself. The forum has a search engine that new people can use so any advice I have already given is always there.
            I understand and appreciate that. Thanks.

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            • #7
              I guess it depends on what Steve means by a 'good player'. From the level he's been at I assume he means pro standard, so what he says make sense in that no coach can take a really poor player and turn him into a pro level players.

              However a coach can help a bad player play a little better at least and I've found that's what all of my students are looking for...just a bit of improvement.

              Next question is...can a coach turn a pro into a better pro? A lot of the pros seem to think so as a lot of them go to coaches. Nic Barrow was coaching Ding when he won his 5 titles this season so perhaps there's a bit of truth in that.

              Terry
              Terry Davidson
              IBSF Master Coach & Examiner

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              • #8
                You are right Vmax ,if you don't have natural hand eye coordination the game is almost impossible, and of course you are right about eyes on the object ball being very very important, but I think other things are just as important and these can be taught, being on line, and dropping down on line are a vital piece of the jigsaw, opening the grip, cueing using just the forearm, or elbow joint, having no shoulder involvement, no tension,cueing through the white , how to control the white, etc, etc, all these things can be taught by a coach, which is most important? None of them, and all of them if you get my drift as each one is absolutely essential to sending the white ball where you want it to go. I hope you don't leave the coaching forum for ever, maybe just a wee break recharge the batteries and get back in the game,you don't want to be held responsible for Les going back to looking at the cue ball do you? Lol. I really enjoy your posts, and when my game has dipped I have read your posts and they bring me back round to doing things right. If it is a final decision I respect that, and just say thanks for your help and contribution , much appreciated.
                Last edited by itsnoteasy; 1 May 2014, 02:42 PM.
                This is how you play darts ,MVG two nines in the same match!
                https://youtu.be/yqTGtwOpHu8

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                • #9
                  I wish I had good coaching at a young age as a beginner, it would have shortened the learning curve by quite some distance.
                  Instead I have been chopping and changing over the years to get what sort of looks like a stroke lol

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                  • #10
                    Think it depends,
                    I'm a youngster never been coached as such been taught by my dad and his mates to hold a cue really but most of my game is pretty natural,
                    Now I'm never going to be amazing especially as I only play pool regularly now but it was nice to read up on what tips I could find I understand it can be irritating when people ask questions over and over again but it thatrs always gonna happen
                    +

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                    • #11
                      Originally Posted by vmax4steve View Post

                      For this reason my mantra of 'hitting what you look' at as the first basic of hand/eye co-ordination cannot be shown to be true on an online forum, and those who don't do it naturally will never be able to do it anyway so I shall take on board what Steve Davis says and post no more advice.

                      My last parting shot is to take in what the commentators say when a pro misses an easy ball, "He took his eye off the pot"
                      well, that's a waste... you're one of the few people on here who talk sense on all matters of technique. So please reconsider your decision to stop posting coaching advice.

                      Steve Davis, as much as everyone who's ever picked up a cue respects him 100%, he's wrong. Totally wrong.

                      Firstly, as Terry said, it depends what you call a good player. If he meant a future world champion then I guess he's correct but if he means a professional standard player, he's wrong. (Assuming there is no physical defect barring improvement - eg visual impairment)

                      Everyone can improve and everyone can become a better player with application, dedication and with constructive, quality practice. It's proven fact via countless sports science studies.

                      A personal anecdotal example that fixed my belief in improvement via coaching for anyone dedicated to improve - there was a lad played in a club in Chadderton / Oldham area. He loved playing but really couldn't hit 20s. He was what you'd call a social player, but he really loved playing. He started having coaching off Andreas Ahmed (I think) a World Snooker coach back then. Every week you'd see the lad practicing, working on what Andreas told him. 18 months / 2 years later - a 137 clearance in pro am.

                      I'm not a coach or a good player at all, but anyone who hits a 137 in pro am is a good player.

                      Ramble over!
                      #jeSuisMasterBlasterBarryWhite2v1977Luclex(andHisF ictiousTwin)BigSplash!

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                      • #12
                        Originally Posted by bolton-cueman View Post
                        well, that's a waste... you're one of the few people on here who talk sense on all matters of technique. So please reconsider your decision to stop posting coaching advice.

                        Steve Davis, as much as everyone who's ever picked up a cue respects him 100%, he's wrong. Totally wrong.

                        Firstly, as Terry said, it depends what you call a good player. If he meant a future world champion then I guess he's correct but if he means a professional standard player, he's wrong. (Assuming there is no physical defect barring improvement - eg visual impairment)

                        Everyone can improve and everyone can become a better player with application, dedication and with constructive, quality practice. It's proven fact via countless sports science studies.

                        A personal anecdotal example that fixed my belief in improvement via coaching for anyone dedicated to improve - there was a lad played in a club in Chadderton / Oldham area. He loved playing but really couldn't hit 20s. He was what you'd call a social player, but he really loved playing. He started having coaching off Andreas Ahmed (I think) a World Snooker coach back then. Every week you'd see the lad practicing, working on what Andreas told him. 18 months / 2 years later - a 137 clearance in pro am.

                        I'm not a coach or a good player at all, but anyone who hits a 137 in pro am is a good player.

                        Ramble over!
                        Aye. Agreed..

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                        • #13
                          Originally Posted by bolton-cueman View Post

                          A personal anecdotal example that fixed my belief in improvement via coaching for anyone dedicated to improve - there was a lad played in a club in Chadderton / Oldham area. He loved playing but really couldn't hit 20s. He was what you'd call a social player, but he really loved playing. He started having coaching off Andreas Ahmed (I think) a World Snooker coach back then. Every week you'd see the lad practicing, working on what Andreas told him. 18 months / 2 years later - a 137 clearance in pro am.

                          I'm not a coach or a good player at all, but anyone who hits a 137 in pro am is a good player.
                          hi bolton, i agree if you can make a tons then your not a bad payer. i'm amazed by the transformation of this player from oldham you offered as an example. i've never come cross such a thing. please can you say what pro-am and tell us his name?

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                          • #14
                            I think the player was called Mahoul or Mel as everyone called him.

                            Easiest way to trace him would be find Andreas, if he's still coaching that is
                            #jeSuisMasterBlasterBarryWhite2v1977Luclex(andHisF ictiousTwin)BigSplash!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally Posted by bolton-cueman View Post
                              I think the player was called Mahoul or Mel as everyone called him.

                              Easiest way to trace him would be find Andreas, if he's still coaching that is
                              okay, but you played at the same club and witness this lads change yourself or was it a story you heard?

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