Steve Davis said

[vmax4steve]

there's even more 'unbelievable' stories of improvement in sports - Donald Thomas, high jumper.

Played basketball at Uni, never done any other sport to any notable level, 8 months after taking up high jumping he finished 4th in the Commonwealth games and went on to set new records within 2 years of starting at his sport.

Think that may make j6uk die in total disbelief - kind of makes a 130 break a bit ordinary doesn't it.

I bet he was very tall and could already jump a bit though so not a comparable example.

Interesting topic this, I can remember a commentator (think it wasKarnhem) being ridiculed for making a comment along the lines of "Jimmy has the wonderful gift of pointing the cue where he is looking". Ultimately this is more important than everything else combined. If you are not doing this, to play well, the rest of your technique has to be a series of corrections.

This is my point exactly and it's something that can be told to someone and maybe the results can seem as though the pupil is really looking where he should, but the trouble is that the player himself doesn't know exactly what he is looking at on the delivery of the cue (Ronnie says this) so the coach has no idea himself either.
It can be told but not proved to be taught and that is the problem when the results of coaching don't seem to be working despite the pupil keeping dead still on the shot and having everything else in place.
I can see players like this in my local league, textbook stance and delivery but can't string a thirty break together.

I look at Jamie Cope and Judd Trump and see that their initial address to the cue ball is right hand side on every shot, but the delivery stroke is to the centre of the cue ball. My practise partner is the same but unlike Cope and Trump his eyes switch to the object ball at the exact moment of the strike and therefore he is very hit and miss but can pot some incredible balls, whereas Cope and Trump switch their eyes to the object ball on the front pause and are top pros, Trump especially and Cope hopefully on his way back.

[bolton-cueman]

I bet he was very tall and could already jump a bit though so not a comparable example..

6ft 1" (or 2 i think) - which is small compared with the 6ft 5"+ of most of the worlds best.

Anyway... the question is are you stopping giving your coaching advice?

[vmax4steve]

It can be told but not proved to be taught and that is the problem when the results of coaching don't seem to be working despite the pupil keeping dead still on the shot and having everything else in place.

Anyway... the question is are you stopping giving your coaching advice?

See above, keep repeating myself and can't be sure that it's getting through so find it rather pointless so yes.

[jb134]

I bet he was very tall and could already jump a bit though so not a comparable example.



This is my point exactly and it's something that can be told to someone and maybe the results can seem as though the pupil is really looking where he should, but the trouble is that the player himself doesn't know exactly what he is looking at on the delivery of the cue (Ronnie says this) so the coach has no idea himself either.
It can be told but not proved to be taught and that is the problem when the results of coaching don't seem to be working despite the pupil keeping dead still on the shot and having everything else in place.
I can see players like this in my local league, textbook stance and delivery but can't string a thirty break together.

I look at Jamie Cope and Judd Trump and see that their initial address to the cue ball is right hand side on every shot, but the delivery stroke is to the centre of the cue ball. My practise partner is the same but unlike Cope and Trump his eyes switch to the object ball at the exact moment of the strike and therefore he is very hit and miss but can pot some incredible balls, whereas Cope and Trump switch their eyes to the object ball on the front pause and are top pros, Trump especially and Cope hopefully on his way back.

That (in my opinion) is because it is a memory game. If you do not have perfect technique, which is what we should strive for, your muscle memory/timing/h2i coordination/ability must guide you through. The better the technique, the less need for correction, the less deviation in variance of performance under pressure. We all know guys with massive practice ability who just can't do it in matches. It's always put down to temperament/bottle/whatever, but is it?

Is it a flawed technique that cannot stand up in a match environment because the corrections cannot be done under pressure?

I completely agree re the point of strike, possibly the greatest practiser in any sport, Ben Hogan, stated he lost sight of the ball "somewhere in his downswing".

Now, is that head/eye movement, or, is so much of the brains processing power focussing on the tiny movements required to complete the action, that less can be used for sight?

I have in the past potted straight blues, holed puts, hit drives etc with my eyes shut. Most of which, in fairness, I can no linger accomplish with my eyes open.

[tedisbill]

In January 2011 I was 27, my highest break was 37. I only played snooker once a week at most. It was in January that I decided I wanted to play properly and decided to have coaching and improve.

I started playing about 5 times a week for 4-5 hours.

In May 2013 I made my first century against my mate: 112. I'm now at the standard where I make regular 70 breaks. I'll have a 60-70 break most times I play. This is all in proper frames against an opponent by the way. I haven't made another century since, but 3 or 4 90+ breaks.

[cyberheater]

In January 2011 I was 27, my highest break was 37. I only played snooker once a week at most. It was in January that I decided I wanted to play properly and decided to have coaching and improve.

I started playing about 5 times a week for 4-5 hours.

In May 2013 I made my first century against my mate: 112. I'm not at the standard where I make regular 70 breaks. I'll have a 60-70 break most times I play. This is all in proper frames against an opponent by the way. I haven't made another century since, but 3 or 4 90+ breaks.

A fantastic inspirational story. Thanks.

[lesedwards]

Young lad down our club has being having coaching for the past 15 months ....20 break player at best when he started . Having coaching off a guy called Terry Burke and the transformation is amazing. Great little player now.....knocked in an 80+ a couple of months ago .

But i have to say that the lad works at it....always practices , does the the right routines and plays against the better players .

Hi Neil you hit the nail on the head. Having my own table I put in loads of table time practicing but playing against better players is really the answer. I get a game once in a while against my coach Terry but now I have Floyd Ziegler current Canadian Champion playing with me once a week. It makes a big difference in both your positional game and your safety game. Sure I make mistakes and he runs a few on me but that's how you learn. Playing professional golf for years my hand eye coordination is good and I still feel at 50 I can reach a high level of play. Current high break in a match is 43 but I feel I am on the edge of a much bigger one. Maybe it will come next week in our around Robins for the Provincials. In fact maybe I will be playing Terry or Floyd when it happens.... you guys better look out.....lol

[tedisbill]

A fantastic inspirational story. Thanks.

Cheers. That should have said "I am now at the standard where I make regular 70 breaks".

[vmax4steve]

We all know guys with massive practice ability who just can't do it in matches. It's always put down to temperament/bottle/whatever, but is it?

Yes it is, but it's not because they are scared of losing or even scared of winning, it's because the anxiety of the match situation makes them take their eye off the object ball and instead look to the cue ball or the pocket. Their physical technique looks the same, no movement on the shot, cue action exactly the same, but the eye isn't guiding their hand when it should be and as snooker requires such very precise contacts between the two balls it's very easy to miss by an inch and suddenly become a bad player.

Ronnie hasn't been playing to his best these last two weeks, I have been watching him with interest and noticed that he hasn't kept his eye on the object ball as well as he did in the Welsh Open. His safety shots especially were hit consistantly thick because he was looking at the cue ball on the strike on his safeties instead of the object ball. His potting wasn't consistantly great as his timing of eye movement to object ball was delayed and happened on the backswing pause far too often making his timing of the stroke a split second affair rather than smooth and measured.

This is what anxiety does to you, trying to make things happen with a certainty rather than relaxing and letting it happen on its own. Many snooker players have this split second timing with their eye movements, I am one of them, but it's these who are not consistant and whose form fluctuates from moment to moment, frame to frame, week to week, year to year, decade to decade even. Mark Williams is a prime example, had perfect timing for a few years and now it's left him, same with John Higgins but for a longer period.

Why was Ronnie looking at the cue ball on his safeties ? maybe because on safeties the cue ball becomes the target as it's the cue ball you are trying to position in a certain place, maybe this is what I do as I am such a poor safety players myself.
Who knows, I can't watch myself play, but what I do know is when I have played really well I remember seeing the object ball clearly, and this I believe is because I was looking at it when I should have been.

Robertson, Selby, Ding, Fu, Murphy and O'Sullivan all look to the object ball on the front pause or at the moment of pulling the cue back on the final backswing.

Bingham, Williams and Higgins all look to the object ball right on the pause of the final backswing or even at the moment of delivering the cue.

When is the focus made on the contact point of the object ball, the moment that the eyes are not simply looking at the object ball but focussed on the contact point, how much time does a certain players individual eyesight require for this.

Who are the best players ? those with perfect eye to object ball timing.
Who are the most consistant players ? those with a longer eye contact time on the object ball.

[vmax4steve]

Playing professional golf for years my hand eye coordination is good and I still feel at 50 I can reach a high level of play.

Your hand/eye co-ordination is different and doesn't transfer to snooker. You look to the cue ball as you did in golf, and on striking the cue ball you then look to the pocket.
That's fine for golf as it's what's required, but snooker is different as the target is different. There is another ball in the equation, between the cue ball and the pocket and that ball is the true target.

This is what makes snooker players different from other sportsmen, the really great ones look at the true target naturally and don't need to be told to do so. Every other part of their game comes from and is tied to this.

[j6uk]

Playing professional golf for years my hand eye coordination is good and I still feel at 50 I can reach a high level of play.

hey les, if you don't mind me asking, have you got anything to to back up your golf pro story? if i may be so bold as to say that you don't come across as someone who's ever been a pro golfer

[lesedwards]

Your hand/eye co-ordination is different and doesn't transfer to snooker. You look to the cue ball as you did in golf, and on striking the cue ball you then look to the pocket.
That's fine for golf as it's what's required, but snooker is different as the target is different. There is another ball in the equation, between the cue ball and the pocket and that ball is the true target.

This is what makes snooker players different from other sportsmen, the really great ones look at the true target naturally and don't need to be told to do so. Every other part of their game comes from and is tied to this.

Hi VMax great post #40, your absolutely right when it comes to golf and snooker. Your whole post is exactly me. I had a guy over to play a couple weeks ago and he said my eyes where wandering all over the place. I understand the line of aim which I see the minute I stand behind the shot. My problem is transferring the line to the back of BOB and focusing on it so there for my eyes wander and most shots I find I am not sure what I was looking at impact. Do you have suggestions on how to see a spot on BOB?

[alabadi]

In January 2011 I was 27, my highest break was 37. I only played snooker once a week at most. It was in January that I decided I wanted to play properly and decided to have coaching and improve.

I started playing about 5 times a week for 4-5 hours.

In May 2013 I made my first century against my mate: 112. I'm now at the standard where I make regular 70 breaks. I'll have a 60-70 break most times I play. This is all in proper frames against an opponent by the way. I haven't made another century since, but 3 or 4 90+ breaks.

that's impressive in 2 years you made huge improvements. I haven't made huge strides as you although I have taken it serious for the last 3 years. maybe my age is something to do with it also how much time I spend on the snooker table practicing. I can unly do 2 days 4-5 hours solo and 2 days 4-5 playing.

I'm hoping soon I can get a 50+ soon, been close so many times but not be able to

[lesedwards]

hey les, if you don't mind me asking, have you got anything to to back up your golf pro story? if i may be so bold as to say that you don't come across as someone who's ever been a pro golfer

My Mother kept all my articles that where in the newspapers but between moving I am not sure where my album is. I will have to take a look.

[ace man]

Do you have suggestions on how to see a spot on BOB?

Can you pot the object ball into the pocket just using the cue, without cueball? I think you certainly can, which means you know exactly where the target is.
Stop thinking consciously so much about eye rythm, contact points...etc. I mean, who does that?