What's actually happening when you go "unconscious" ?

[Smeeagain]

Just to add a little to this. I have experienced this in another sport where I reached fairly high level a number of years ago. Firstly there must be some degree of ability. Execution of a skill based activity can be taught up to a point (ie talent/ability plays a part too). Bad players don't get into the 'flow'.

There needs to be thousands of hours, quite literally, for it to become natural (some say at least 10,000 hours)

The references above to 'temporal concerns' and self say/do are what we most recently call 'boxing the inner chimp'

We've all seen that classic shot where someone lines up a pot then looks away at your opponent or the camera or whatever and still makes the pot so focus on cue ball object ball etc is not necessarily critical - what therefore must be critical is prior aim 100% correct and then no change after that such that the aim/execution is delivered correctly.
Now I will state here I am not a good snooker player Im just hypothesising on what I observe with regards to those who can lien up a shot then pot it after looking away.

In other areas (sport, business , other skill based activities) they call it the four levels of competence

1 -Unconscious incompetent - one who does not know how bad he or she is at a given task (auditions for X factor spring to mind)

2 -Conscious incompetent - one who knows how bad he or she is (most of us)

3 -Conscious competent - one who is good at it when he or she thinks about it (some of us)

4- Unconscious competent - one is good at it without even thinking (professional sports persons such as top snooker players) - now that is not to suggest that they aren't thinking at all because they are but the 'flow' state for the pros is when they are in the unconscious competent stage. Quite often they fall back to the level below.

It is not possible so far to teach someone to be the fourth level. Some reach it and some never do. Re the recent debate about the merits of MArk Selby, I'd say he generally sits at level 3 and rarely gets to level 4 BUT that is not necessarily a bad thing because he is constantly thinking and of course became World Champion but I think he rarely gets into the unconscious competent stage.

[Cmbrstefan]

Soon I think I should go to a shaolin temple or something. There I would master inner calmness and strength. Being in the flow is like deep meditation. Where you smile and , get a nice feeling in the body that makes you happy. Even tho you had it the ball not to where you want you still make good , recoveries.

[rightoncue89]

What's actually happening when you go "unconscious" ?

Im not sure exactly what i feel or do when im 'in the zone' i think one key thing though that comes to mind is that my eyes are always focused on the baize, and thinking time seems faster i think, because im focused on the table so much i have worked out what shot im playing next almost instantly and therefore have no doubts or second thoughts once down on the shot.
and generally when you are playing well and have a break going amongst the balls every shot should be simple, small stuns, screws and run throughs. Nothing complicated.

[itsnoteasy]

ive played many free flowing players in the past. they've knocked in a nice long red and followed that with a flowing forty but then ooh just over cut a cutback black, ive cleared to the blue with an 80. the next they missed on 17, ive gone fifty odd then berried the white. next their flow was nowhere to be seen and they couldn't pot a ball.
i knew exactly how they felt because i'd had that done to me on many times before.. you can be flowing, flying, buzzing, what ever you wanna call it but once that pressure comes on a big fat ? mark with be hovering over your head for everyone to see, then we see how you play, you want be thinking about flow and you'll be fully conscious that's for sure
this is when all that studying and good training kicks in.

Probably one of the best posts I have read on here , when the pressures on and that frame/match ball is near, or your getting a tonking, that's where the self belief, and hours and hours of honing that technique to stand up under scrutiny comes in, if you can do that,that's when you know your a good player, not when everything is going great, we can all play well then. That's not called flow, that's called character( one thing to admire totally in Selby). I'm hopeless at it lol, but admire those that can do it. I'm more the first example , stick in a forty think the frames won ,get lazy ,frames gone.

[Mike P]

As already mentioned, the zone has two requirements, playing without thinking and your body is just doing the task at hand.

I think that when in the zone we do speed up. Knowing what to play without thinking about it does cut down on the time. But more importantly, we are walking to the next shot a bit quicker.

To help promote entering the zone perhaps we can trick our minds into not thinking. Occupy your mind by concentrating on your (quicker) walk. Also, pull the trigger quicker when down on your shot. This does not let your mind have time to get involved. By trying these two things, who knows, you just might walk yourself into the zone.

My theory has worked for me twice, but then I started to think about it.

[itsnoteasy]

I think this is concentrating on the wrong thing, it's not about how well you play when playing well,or in the zone, it's about how well you play when playing poorly,this is what defines what standard you are at, because let's face it we will rarely play at our peak, in that little bubble, so I think this is a much more important thing to look at.

[j6uk]

As already mentioned, the zone has two requirements, playing without thinking and your body is just doing the task at hand.

I think that when in the zone we do speed up. Knowing what to play without thinking about it does cut down on the time. But more importantly, we are walking to the next shot a bit quicker.

To help promote entering the zone perhaps we can trick our minds into not thinking. Occupy your mind by concentrating on your (quicker) walk. Also, pull the trigger quicker when down on your shot. This does not let your mind have time to get involved. By trying these two things, who knows, you just might walk yourself into the zone.

My theory has worked for me twice, but then I started to think about it.

i love this, this is great with quicken up, walk in the zone, no mind involved. this is great for fantasy keep on dreaming snooker, it really is. these stories are being told by none competing players, at leased they don't know what its like that if you miss one ball when your in, they dish. ffs get real. you think those cants in Qschool were thinking about all this? yes have a positive out look, yes build up momentum when your in the balls but, don't loose your mind in wonder land because theres a half pint behind you ready and waiting to fill your boots mf

[Smeeagain]

I think this is concentrating on the wrong thing, it's not about how well you play when playing well,or in the zone, it's about how well you play when playing poorly,this is what defines what standard you are at, because let's face it we will rarely play at our peak, in that little bubble, so I think this is a much more important thing to look at.

I don't disagree with you, but that is not what the topic is about.

[Smeeagain]

i love this, this is great with quicken up, walk in the zone, no mind involved. this is great for fantasy keep on dreaming snooker, it really is. these stories are being told by none competing players, at leased they don't know what its like that if you miss one ball when your in, they dish. ffs get real. you think those cants in Qschool were thinking about all this? yes have a positive out look, yes build up momentum when your in the balls but, don't loose your mind in wonder land because theres a half pint behind you ready and waiting to fill your boots mf

You're missing the point entirely.

Firstly - we're talking about the subconscious mind, so yes you're right .... they're 'not thinking' about it - at least not consciously thinking. And secondly, perhaps not all, but some of those guys at Q School and some of the pros ARE thinking about it - and what I mean is they are thinking about the mental/conscious/subconscious approach to the game - thats why they employ Steve Peters and others (but he's the name that gets bandied about). In the good old days, whether it be this sport or others, the mental approach was down to the coach. Now they split up the coaching functions - tactics, safety play, potting , cueing, even fitness -Ronnie O'Sullivan being a prime example although he mainly does it for other reasons as far as I can gather.that said he is quite clear in his book about when he feels fit his mind is more alert (this is due to a number of factors but fitter folk have better circulation which gives greater blood flow to the bran and son on)
We all have unconscious moments - for example the old adage about you never forget how to ride a bike. In snooker for most players it is the way you chalk your cue without even thinking. the things you do when feathering that you don't notice (because you're NOT thinking about it consciously)
It's all about the four level of consciousness. the mind has a HUGE part to play in all sports. We talk about folk bottling it or choking when under pressure - thats because the consciousness (or chimp) kicks in and takes over. Laugh at it if you want but don't underestimate it - it applies to us all in some way shape or form

[j6uk]

You're missing the point entirely. oh

Firstly - we're talking about the subconscious mind, so yes you're right thatks .... they're 'not thinking' about it - at least not consciously thinking. really why?
And secondly, perhaps not all, but some of those guys at Q School and some of the pros ARE thinking about it - and what I mean is they are thinking about the mental/conscious/subconscious approach to the game again who told you that? - thats why they employ Steve Peters ron does yeah but we don't know what they talk about do we?! and others (but he's the name that gets bandied about).
In the good old days, whether it be this sport or others, the mental approach was down to the coach. Now they split up the coaching functions - tactics, safety play, potting , cueing, even fitness -Ronnie O'Sullivan being a prime example although he mainly does it for other reasons as far as I can gather.that said he is quite clear in his book about when he feels fit his mind is more alert (this is due to a number of factors but fitter folk have better circulation which gives greater blood flow to the bran and son on)
We all have unconscious moments - for example the old adage about you never forget how to ride a bike. In snooker for most players it is the way you chalk your cue without even thinking. the things you do when feathering that you don't notice (because you're NOT thinking about it consciously) sorry man do you play snooker? it don't work like that.
It's all about the four level of consciousness. the mind has a HUGE part to play in all sports. We talk about folk bottling it or choking when under pressure - thats because the consciousness (or chimp) kicks in and takes over. Laugh at it if you want but don't underestimate it - it applies to us all in some way shape or form err no you don't play, at leased not under proper pressure

come on guy this is a pie in the sky stuff

[vmax4steve]

i love this, this is great with quicken up, walk in the zone, no mind involved. this is great for fantasy keep on dreaming snooker, it really is. these stories are being told by none competing players, at leased they don't know what its like that if you miss one ball when your in, they dish. ffs get real. you think those cants in Qschool were thinking about all this? yes have a positive out look, yes build up momentum when your in the balls but, don't loose your mind in wonder land because theres a half pint behind you ready and waiting to fill your boots mf

You are missing the point j6. It's not about going into a dreamstate and playing without thought to the contest in hand. It's about having no conscious thought about the mechanics of the cue action, playing snooker like you ride a bike and seeing the game rather than thinking about it.

I was playing last night against my usual practise partner and unfortunately we had to play in the room at our club that has two tables in it, even though the room isn't big enough for two.
If the cue ball is six inches from the side cushions then you are up against the wall or the other table and can't take your proper stance which usually means end of break.
This happened to both of us all the time for the first three frames and I was getting fed up with it and switched off and also, so I thought, switched off my focus as well.

I was wrong though as for the next four frames I found myself getting good position with the cue ball and ended up making a couple of 40+ breaks and several 30+'s too. I even made some pots while stood up when I couldn't make my stance and my rest play was about 95% which is unreal for me.
This wasn't done with any conscious thought that I needed to keep the cue ball in the middle of the table more, I stopped thinking, accepted the situation and it just happened, and I only realised it after the session was over.

[j6uk]

You are missing the point j6. It's not about going into a dreamstate and playing without thought to the contest in hand. It's about having no conscious thought about the mechanics of the cue action, playing snooker like you ride a bike and seeing the game rather than thinking about it.
all due respect, i really do know what people are getting at. i'm happy that you can play and not think about it when your mate once in a while, but lets say that was a tournament and its a rival whos gonna bang in a frame winning break if you miss. now this match will become a story that will have a beginning middle end end. you will have conscious thought, because the pressure will mount and make you blush and hot. yes you might be timing the ball nice, cueing well and finding some momentum but your earning your chances, its one ball at a time, focused and conscious

I was playing last night against my usual practise partner and unfortunately we had to play in the room at our club that has two tables in it, even though the room isn't big enough for two.
If the cue ball is six inches from the side cushions then you are up against the wall or the other table and can't take your proper stance which usually means end of break.
This happened to both of us all the time for the first three frames and I was getting fed up with it and switched off and also, so I thought, switched off my focus as well.

I was wrong though as for the next four frames I found myself getting good position with the cue ball and ended up making a couple of 40+ breaks and several 30+'s too. I even made some pots while stood up when I couldn't make my stance and my rest play was about 95% which is unreal for me.
This wasn't done with any conscious thought that I needed to keep the cue ball in the middle of the table more, I stopped thinking, accepted the situation and it just happened, and I only realised it after the session was over.

i am exclusively talking about competitive play.

[j6uk]

sometimes i would have to stop myself in practice if 'like what has been said about this unconscious flow', yeah i'd be knocking in balls all over the place and quicken up. but i'd stop.. that kind of play is to fragile in a match. i wanna be fully aware of what i'm doing. just like my cue action because i know i need to be timing that white right on every single shot, or else i'm gonna loose it

[j6uk]

You're missing the point entirely.

It's all about the four level of consciousness.

i'm gonna sit back think about this a bit more but until my next post can someone explain this?

[itsnoteasy]

I still can't see the point in talking about something that happens fleetingly at best, but on a subconscious level maybe I can ,who knows, I will need a special doctor to tell me what I'm really thinking, no not thinking, that's bad.