What's actually happening when you go "unconscious" ?

[vmax4steve]

this is good, but you don't hear too much about flow/unconscious/zone play because he's focused and thinking of every shot one ball at a time. i like the way he says how he likes to hit every shot, positive

Post break/match analysis j6, he's had time to think about it as he's watched it several times over and simply states the situation of the frame at various times, not what he was actually thinking when playing.
He had his eyes very focussed on the object ball throughout this break, and match I recall, I know this because this is what I watch out for. Against Selby in the world final he didn't, he was switching his eyes to the object ball late when going for pots, and looking at the cue ball when playing safeties. In fact he was playing like this throughout the championship which explains to me his up and down form.
This told me that he wasn't quite in the zone, there was anxiety in his mind, he knew he wasn't quite at his best, something else on his mind or maybe he was fighting a negative mindset due to his bi-polar disorder, who knows, but he wasn't quite at the races throughout the whole 17 days.

When he's really on it he looks almost exclusively at the object ball, just a quick glance at the cue ball when he's going down into his stance, cue ball is then in his peripheral vision with main focus on the object ball. When not on it he's the other way round, looks at the cue ball too much and switches to the object ball on the final backswing.
The timing of this switch is pivotal and absolutely crucial to be able to play at a high standard, both Mark Williams and John Higgins have both lost this at this time, Stuart Bingham relies very much on it as well and is also hit and miss at the moment.

Robertson, Selby and Ding don't do this at all, their focus is very much on the object ball on the front pause, Ronnie fluctuates between front pause when at his best and back pause when playing inconsistantly.
That's the reason why these are the most consistantly best players in the world, make the most tons, win the most titles.

[itsnoteasy]

Post break/match analysis j6, he's had time to think about it as he's watched it several times over and simply states the situation of the frame at various times, not what he was actually thinking when playing.
He had his eyes very focussed on the object ball throughout this break, and match I recall, I know this because this is what I watch out for. Against Selby in the world final he didn't, he was switching his eyes to the object ball late when going for pots, and looking at the cue ball when playing safeties. In fact he was playing like this throughout the championship which explains to me his up and down form.
This told me that he wasn't quite in the zone, there was anxiety in his mind, he knew he wasn't quite at his best, something else on his mind or maybe he was fighting a negative mindset due to his bi-polar disorder, who knows, but he wasn't quite at the races throughout the whole 17 days.

When he's really on it he looks almost exclusively at the object ball, just a quick glance at the cue ball when he's going down into his stance, cue ball is then in his peripheral vision with main focus on the object ball. When not on it he's the other way round, looks at the cue ball too much and switches to the object ball on the final backswing.
The timing of this switch is pivotal and absolutely crucial to be able to play at a high standard, both Mark Williams and John Higgins have both lost this at this time, Stuart Bingham relies very much on it as well and is also hit and miss at the moment.

Robertson, Selby and Ding don't do this at all, their focus is very much on the object ball on the front pause, Ronnie fluctuates between front pause when at his best and back pause when playing inconsistantly.
That's the reason why these are the most consistantly best players in the world, make the most tons, win the most titles.

So that's nothing at all to do with any mind tricks, or pseudo science, or the great doctor guru(who has absolutely nothing new to say, but just rehashes things in a new way) or zen states, it is purely a technical issue.

[j6uk]

go on share some of your stories of money matches in hong Kong

no, im telling porkies

[j6uk]

Post break/match analysis j6, he's had time to think about it as he's watched it several times over and simply states the situation of the frame at various times, not what he was actually thinking when playing. thing is i can totally relate to what he's saying. many times players have picked my brains after a ton and ive walked them through it in a similar way.. so i see this different
He had his eyes very focussed on the object ball throughout this break, and match I recall, I know this because this is what I watch out for. Against Selby in the world final he didn't, he was switching his eyes to the object ball late when going for pots, and looking at the cue ball when playing safeties. In fact he was playing like this throughout the championship which explains to me his up and down form.
This told me that he wasn't quite in the zone, there was anxiety in his mind, he knew he wasn't quite at his best, something else on his mind or maybe he was fighting a negative mindset due to his bi-polar disorder, who knows, but he wasn't quite at the races throughout the whole 17 days.

When he's really on it he looks almost exclusively at the object ball, just a quick glance at the cue ball when he's going down into his stance, cue ball is then in his peripheral vision with main focus on the object ball. When not on it he's the other way round, looks at the cue ball too much and switches to the object ball on the final backswing.
The timing of this switch is pivotal and absolutely crucial to be able to play at a high standard, both Mark Williams and John Higgins have both lost this at this time, Stuart Bingham relies very much on it as well and is also hit and miss at the moment.

Robertson, Selby and Ding don't do this at all, their focus is very much on the object ball on the front pause, Ronnie fluctuates between front pause when at his best and back pause when playing inconsistantly.
That's the reason why these are the most consistantly best players in the world, make the most tons, win the most titles.

you seem to have done much studying on the pro's, far more so than me so, i feel a little out of depth in this regard

[vmax4steve]

So that's nothing at all to do with any mind tricks, or pseudo science, or the great doctor guru(who has absolutely nothing new to say, but just rehashes things in a new way) or zen states, it is purely a technical issue.

No it's not a technical issue at all, he's unaware of what he looks at, he says so himself. What the doctor gives him is the ability to stay within a certain mindset that enables him to stick in there with a B game whereas before he would beat himself up about not playing to his best all the time and simply fold.
His B game is pretty damn good and got him to the final this year but he didn't find his A game in any one session, maybe for a couple of frames at a time like at the end of his match against Perry.

When you watch players and look to see which ball they are looking at on the strike it's unknown what they are actually focussing on. You can only tell the direction of their gaze, but to look at the object ball on the front pause does give more time to actually focus on the contact point rather than just the ball itself. To look at the object ball on the rear pause or right on the delivery of the cue doesn't give enough time for this unless one has fantastic vision and can see it immediately or the short term memory takes your focus right to it subconsciously.

Again timing of the switch of eye focus is crucial to this, those who don't switch on the rear pause or delivery but focus on the front pause don't have such crucial timing issues and are therefore more consistant.
That's what I think anyway.

[Catch 22]

No it's not a technical issue at all, he's unaware of what he looks at, he says so himself. What the doctor gives him is the ability to stay within a certain mindset that enables him to stick in there with a B game whereas before he would beat himself up about not playing to his best all the time and simply fold.
His B game is pretty damn good and got him to the final this year but he didn't find his A game in any one session, maybe for a couple of frames at a time like at the end of his match against Perry.

When you watch players and look to see which ball they are looking at on the strike it's unknown what they are actually focussing on. You can only tell the direction of their gaze, but to look at the object ball on the front pause does give more time to actually focus on the contact point rather than just the ball itself. To look at the object ball on the rear pause or right on the delivery of the cue doesn't give enough time for this unless one has fantastic vision and can see it immediately or the short term memory takes your focus right to it subconsciously.

Again timing of the switch of eye focus is crucial to this, those who don't switch on the rear pause or delivery but focus on the front pause don't have such crucial timing issues and are therefore more consistant.
That's what I think anyway.

When standing up i look at the shot /line of aim etc . When i go down I drop my head and cue straight down on the line of aim . Im looking at the object ball (but NOT a contact point , just the ball in general ) while feathering the shot either "feels" right or wrong . I switch eyes to object ball on front pause but again its just to the OB in general . What is your opinion on this ,thanks ?

[itsnoteasy]

He knows what he's doing, he was just playing games in that interview , if he plays well looking at the ob, on the front pause, and plays poorly not looking at the ob on the front pause, that is nothing to do with his mindset ,that is utterly ,utterly a technical issue.

[Ramon]

He knows what he's doing, he was just playing games in that interview , if he plays well looking at the ob, on the front pause, and plays poorly not looking at the ob on the front pause, that is nothing to do with his mindset ,that is utterly ,utterly a technical issue.

Itsnoteasy,, When you talk about top 32 players in the world and compare them with each other. you're actually talking about maybe 10 percent difference in technique and 90 percent mental issue. these players all have a good technique and experience. you disagree? What I mean is, someone like ROS, knows very well that he should look at the OB and he has many years of experience. so, he is doing something wrong. because his technique is not good? or because of mindset issue ?? ( If you don't mind me asking that !! ) . Thanks

[itsnoteasy]

During that interview Ronnie also stated he couldn't play position on single balls, he had to play into areas, he said he tried it but kept running out of position, and had to play recovery shots ,the amount of people who believed that was quite hard to believe. This is from a man who has made the record number of 147 s in tourney play, to make a 147 you have to pot 36 consecutive shots and 22 of those shots you MUST, not might or could,MUST play position on a single ball, so don't fall for what he says on TV .
My whole point is this, everyone can have technical issues with their cueing, that's why pros still have coaches, sometimes it's hard to tell yourself what you are doing wrong(Ronnie switching his eyes too late) he more than likely doesn't know his eye rhythm has changed , I have no reason to doubt what Vmax has said about his as he does study this thing as he believes this is very important, but that is not a mindset thing that is a technical issue to do with his cueing , a head doctor can't cure that, a coach can though.
Fix what's wrong with the cueing, the pots start flying in, the mindset will follow. Tell the mind you are great, and your the best, get that monkey in a cage , or whatever, go out and cue like a numpty , how long will it take for the mind to crumble? So head shrink or coach,?
Which one was needed.

[j6uk]

During that interview Ronnie also stated he couldn't play position on single balls, he had to play into areas, he said he tried it but kept running out of position, and had to play recovery shots ,the amount of people who believed that was quite hard to believe. This is from a man who has made the record number of 147 s in tourney play, to make a 147 you have to pot 36 consecutive shots and 22 of those shots you MUST, not might or could,MUST play position on a single ball, so don't fall for what he says on TV . sorry fella but from where i'm sitting you got that all wrong about these 22 must be spot on! he was talking about getting on reds not colors, but what 22 shots you on about?
My whole point is this, everyone can have technical issues with their cueing, that's why pros still have coaches, sometimes it's hard to tell yourself what you are doing wrong(Ronnie switching his eyes too late) he more than likely doesn't know his eye rhythm has changed , I have no reason to doubt what Vmax has said about his as he does study this thing as he believes this is very important, but that is not a mindset thing that is a technical issue to do with his cueing , a head doctor can't cure that, a coach can though.
Fix what's wrong with the cueing, the pots start flying in, the mindset will follow. Tell the mind you are great, and your the best, get that monkey in a cage , or whatever, go out and cue like a numpty , how long will it take for the mind to crumble? So head shrink or coach,?
Which one was needed.

you said some provoking things here.. i'd like to see a couple of pebbles thrown in that flow, like a kick in the ass, lets see the flow when you've missed a couple of blacks of the spot.. but i guess the flow is all about 100% pot success rate

[itsnoteasy]

Yes J6 he was on about reds but if he can't play position on a single red he can't play position on a single ball as a red is just another single ball is it not. Here is my reasons why on a 147 break (and only on a 147 as you could play to say get on the pink and black with one shot on a break that is not a 147 so it possible to play into an area on a break that is not a 147) 22 of the shots out of 36 are one ball positional shots, firstly you have the fifteen blacks all of these are not area shots, all of these are one ball positional shots as obviously you have to play for the black every time, so you only have one ball to play on. The last red, has to be a one ball positional shot, there is only one red left so you have to play on it, then there are the six colours in sequence at the end, it may be easy for him but all these six shots are one ball positional shots , so that's 15 blacks, 1 red 6 colours ,making a total of 22 out of the 36 shots needed that you must play on single balls, I never said he had to be spot on exact,(although I'm sure that's what he's after, and he probably comes very close to it to achieve the 147) I said he had to be able to play position on one ball, and to make a 147 you have to do it a minimum of 22 out of the 36 shots.

[j6uk]

the majority of the reds that a good player plays for max or not would be two to three reds at a time if possible

[itsnoteasy]

the majority of the reds that a good player plays for max or not would be two to three reds at a time if possible

That may be the case, but he can't play for options on the next shot can he, he must play correct position on a specific ball, namely the black and he must do this fifteen times in a row, so if he can do this, he can play to get on a single red ,if needs be.
Plus if the majority of reds potted are him playing into an area, say ten of the fifteen, that then makes the total 27 out of 36 shots in a147 break, are played on a specific ball and not into an area, making it an even greater achievement , the more you think about it the more amazing it is that anyone has done it, it must be a fantastic feeling to have this milestone under your hat.
The biggest thing that gets my goat about all this mind stuff, was last year when Ronnie won, the doctor got all the praise, he was the messiah that had all the answers, it was him that got as much praise as Ronnie, he had found a way of letting him play with no fear, and all the other mumbo jumbo they came out with, it felt like Ronnie had nothing to do with it, he just potted the balls, it was the guru with his new found ways that really won it.
This year he's at the crucible with Ronnie, during this tourney Ronnie plays poorly ,save a couple of sessions, he suffers a total meltdown in the final, who's faults that? Ronnie's, nothing at all is mentioned about the guru this time round(not after the final anyway, they were still praising him before it) why weren't his methods and ideas challenged, as they so obviously failed miserably, if it's all down to him when Ronnie wins, it's only fair, that it's his fault if he has a meltdown, as his coping methods have failed.
Here is a wee alternative as to why the two years may have been so different . Last year he was fresh as a daisey, hungry for it, he was playing a field that had a very long hard season, they were jaded he was fresh, he was up for it they were tired, so when he put the pressure on they faded mentally . This year he played quite a bit(quite a lot if you consider what he had been doing for the past eighteen months) he was tired and jaded, and the field caught up with him, when he met a player that refused to buckle, Ronnie's resolve was broken, nothing mystical in it, in my day it would have been said he ran out of gas, that's all that happened , that's why his timing and cueing went, not because of flow, or monkeys or boxes, it was just a step too far, a step I may add that the doctor is there to get him past but he failed.
One thing I think that changed Ronnie around is his running, exercise releases endorphins, and is highly recommended for people who suffer from mild depression(I don't know if he he does) or anybody else for that matter, it's a great boost for the body, even gentle exercise, I reckon this did him more good than anything else.

[j6uk]

That may be the case, but he can't play for options on the next shot can he, he must play correct position on a specific ball, namely the black and he must do this fifteen times in a row, well now there's a gulf opening up because a good player would know that another good player can get high or low on a black at the drop of a hat, and remember we're talking the cream here bro so if he can do this, he can play to get on a single red ,if needs be. i'm not a bad player most of the time and ive done a 100 blacks many times with my best being 216 and you don't get to do that by landing straight on the black or going all around the houses for the next one. landing high or low on a black is deeply embedded into a players memory data base
Plus if the majority of reds potted are him playing into an area, say ten of the fifteen, that then makes the total 27 out of 36 shots in a147 break, are played on a specific ball and not into an area, making it an even greater achievement , the more you think about it the more amazing it is that anyone has done it, it must be a fantastic feeling to have this milestone under your hat.
The biggest thing that gets my goat about all this mind stuff, was last year when Ronnie won, the doctor got all the praise, he was the messiah that had all the answers, it was him that got as much praise as Ronnie, he had found a way of letting him play with no fear, and all the other mumbo jumbo they came out with, it felt like Ronnie had nothing to do with it, he just potted the balls, it was the guru with his new found ways that really won it.
This year he's at the crucible with Ronnie, during this tourney Ronnie plays poorly ,save a couple of sessions, he suffers a total meltdown in the final, who's faults that? Ronnie's, nothing at all is mentioned about the guru this time round(not after the final anyway, they were still praising him before it) why weren't his methods and ideas challenged, as they so obviously failed miserably, if it's all down to him when Ronnie wins, it's only fair, that it's his fault if he has a meltdown, as his coping methods have failed. from what you've just said you'd likely get a nonchalant grin from him
Here is a wee alternative as to why the two years may have been so different . Last year he was fresh as a daisey, hungry for it, he was playing a field that had a very long hard season, they were jaded he was fresh, he was up for it they were tired, so when he put the pressure on they faded mentally . This year he played quite a bit(quite a lot if you consider what he had been doing for the past eighteen months) he was tired and jaded, and the field caught up with him, when he met a player that refused to buckle, Ronnie's resolve was broken, nothing mystical in it, in my day it would have been said he ran out of gas, that's all that happened , that's why his timing and cueing went, not because of flow, or monkeys or boxes, it was just a step too far, a step I may add that the doctor is there to get him past but he failed.
One thing I think that changed Ronnie around is his running, exercise releases endorphins, and is highly recommended for people who suffer from mild depression(I don't know if he he does) or anybody else for that matter, it's a great boost for the body, even gentle exercise, I reckon this did him more good than anything else. but why do you really think it help his snooks?

as far as i know rons been running since he was a teenager

[alabadi]

That may be the case, but he can't play for options on the next shot can he, he must play correct position on a specific ball, namely the black and he must do this fifteen times in a row, so if he can do this, he can play to get on a single red ,if needs be.
.

i think playing on the black is not like playing on an individual red, firstly the black is in a specific place on the table that never changes, and every pro has probably practiced to get on it low/high using 1 cushion 2 cushions...etc for thousands of hours through out there career.

in regards to reds they will be scattered on the table at random and no 147 will ever be the same they will be in different places. and as J6 has mentioned throught out the break a player will usually play in an area to give options for more than one red bar the last one. but by then its usally pretty straight forward and any reasonble angle will do.