What's actually happening when you go "unconscious" ?

[itsnoteasy]

no. the day that you wanna call here to do with break building, don't exist. sorry man but ron was just chatting, yes he can play for a single red for many frames, if the balls fall that way. you know like make a neat little 50 or total clearance. but listen if you can't see what we're saying it mean a few things. one main one is that you haven't and your not planning to do the work in the future as to how this game works as far as break building goes

I honestly just give up.

[j6uk]

I honestly just give up.

why? what's wrong?
you don't have to believe ron, or other tsf members, go and ask cris small, i'm sure he'll answer you mate

[itsnoteasy]

It's going round in circles now, that's why I give up, I said he was joking when he said he couldn't play on single balls, and found it hard to believe that people believed him when he said that, and in your post you agreed with that, and also said he played on ten reds with single ball position during that one break I posted,that's the end of it, I wasn't on about playing into areas, or playing for options, I have never said he doesn't do this, or that it's not the best way to increase your chances of continuing a break, for the last time, for the people who think Ronnie was telling the truth when he said he can't play position on single reds as he keeps running out of position , I don't think he was being serious, that's it, that's all I mean nothing else, just don't take everything he said in that interview as gospel.

[hotpot]

I believe there are few occasions when playing snooker that are thought free , meaning that you aint feelin angry , mad , sad , irritated , unlucky , mind elsewhere etc etc , i believe when you have nothing on youre mind and are totally 100 % focused on youre snooker its more likely that you can get into the zone , it does,nt happen that often as we are humans . Just my thoughts on it .

[thelongbomber]

J6 it's nothing to do with what break is easier or harder ,it was about wether Ronnie was telling the truth about not being good enough to play position on a single ball, but I think it's time to call it a day, I still believe Ronnie was joking when he said he couldn't play on single balls, and I still don't think his doctor did much if anything to help him when he needed him most,and got away without any spotlight being placed on his methods, but I see I'm in a minority of one, so I will lick my wounds and accept that.

Actually you aren't alone. I also agree that not everything ROS says about his game will be complete. After all, he may have aspirations to match/beat Hendry so why would he share all his break making secrets?

In terms of making a 147, one of my m8 states this and I have to agree with him: "In order to to make a maximum, you have to play at least a few positional shots incorrectly. That is, where you would normally play for a baulk or blue or pink, you will go out of your way to play on a black." So is Ronnie "fluking" his way to a maximum? Most definitely not. What you don't see as blatantly obvious is that he is going out of his way to maneuver the cue ball into position.

In terms of break making, typically there are 3 stages. The first 40-50 points are generally straightforward from safety shots and having reds knocked out. This is the easiest 40-50 points to get and so you will see many amateurs be capable of a 50 break. The second 40-50 require that you open the pack. This second stage of break making requires that you "torque" or "spin" the cue ball into the pack at some point. Either from blue or black or pink. The third 40-50 points is typically the most difficult because you are limited on what areas of the table you can play on and you also need a lot more cue ball control for the colors.

[j6uk]

It's going round in circles now, that's why I give up, I said he was joking when he said he couldn't play on single balls, and found it hard to believe that people believed him when he said that, and in your post you agreed with that, and also said he played on ten reds with single ball position during that one break I posted,that's the end of it, I wasn't on about playing into areas, or playing for options, I have never said he doesn't do this, or that it's not the best way to increase your chances of continuing a break, for the last time, for the people who think Ronnie was telling the truth when he said he can't play position on single reds as he keeps running out of position , I don't think he was being serious, that's it, that's all I mean nothing else, just don't take everything he said in that interview as gospel.

ifn you feel that you really made sense, thats good enough for me. i will say though, that i had no problem with what ron was saying in this video so, ive done the work and i have no words to twist

[j6uk]

Actually you aren't alone. I also agree that not everything ROS says about his game will be complete. After all, he may have aspirations to match/beat Hendry so why would he share all his break making secrets? what secrets? do you know of any? you get what you see and if you can't see it you sure aint gonna understand or replicate it!

In terms of making a 147, one of my m8 states this and I have to agree with him: "In order to to make a maximum, you have to play at least a few positional shots incorrectly. That is, where you would normally play for a baulk or blue or pink, you will go out of your way to play on a black." So is Ronnie "fluking" his way to a maximum? Most definitely not. What you don't see as blatantly obvious is that he is going out of his way to maneuver the cue ball into position. no really? wow what a revelation!

In terms of break making, typically there are 3 stages. The first 40-50 points are generally straightforward from safety shots and having reds knocked out. This is the easiest 40-50 points to get and so you will see many amateurs be capable of a 50 break. The second 40-50 require that you open the pack. This second stage of break making requires that you "torque" or "spin" the cue ball into the pack at some point. Either from blue or black or pink. The third 40-50 points is typically the most difficult because you are limited on what areas of the table you can play on and you also need a lot more cue ball control for the colors.

well the first 30 needs some care because its all about opening the reds at some point, then if they open okay its down to winning the frame, the last 1/3 of the break is very straight forwards for good players unless you still needs to open a few more or play a red down the cush

[vmax4steve]

It's going round in circles now, that's why I give up, I said he was joking when he said he couldn't play on single balls, and found it hard to believe that people believed him when he said that, and in your post you agreed with that, and also said he played on ten reds with single ball position during that one break I posted,that's the end of it, I wasn't on about playing into areas, or playing for options, I have never said he doesn't do this, or that it's not the best way to increase your chances of continuing a break, for the last time, for the people who think Ronnie was telling the truth when he said he can't play position on single reds as he keeps running out of position , I don't think he was being serious, that's it, that's all I mean nothing else, just don't take everything he said in that interview as gospel.

It's a generalisation of what he does when breakbuilding and shouldn't be spotlighted on individual maximums or hundred breaks that he has made.
He says he gives himself options otherwise if playing precise position on a certain ball, a little bit out will mean having to play a recovery shot, so rather than attempt precise position for every shot, if he has the option he will play into an area where if he over or under hits a shot he will have another choice.
it's not that he can't play onto a single ball, he obviously can, it's just that he can't do it every single time with absolute certainty that he will get exact position.

The real reason that he and so many of the top pros make so many tons is that they use side a lot more than people believe they do. It looks like they are getting perfect position all the time but in fact they use trace amounts of side to make up for under or over hitting certain shots.
Take a look at his fastest ever max when he was really in the zone and count the number of time he uses side to stay in position. It isn't even thought about, it's just instinctively done because he knows simply by looking. And remember that when side is used it's because optimum position wasn't acheived, again showing the frailties of perfect single ball positional play.

As for Dr. Peters contribution to Ronnies performance in the championships, it's an unknown what Ronnies' mental state was during those seventeen days. As a known sufferer of bi-polar disorder (manic depression) he could very well have been on a depressive downer due to lack of endorphins in the brain, and if so then the doctors methods got him to the final playing a B game where before he could very well have jacked it in and given up.
Where his brain gets an overdose of endorphins and therefore in a manic state he doesn't need any help at all from anyone, when in a normal state like the rest of us, he probably uses the doctors methods to stop negative tactics from interfering with his focus, which is something we all could benefit from.
I could very well be wrong but that's the way I see it, no witchdoctoring going on.

[Smeeagain]

I wouldn't call you as dinosaur at all. In any sport there can be no substitute for hours and hours and hours of repetitive practice. But ...... there is also room for research and learning and development. Do we think for example in physical sports - say running to take ROS's favourite pastime - that runners have got faster because they practice? Their predecessors practiced too. The difference is that the current generation has the benefit of the research and knows hows how to practice better. Thats where the doctors and all that stuff comes in - its about better application of the practice. Not less practice or more practice or anything like that, just better practice. Call it more effective practice if you like.
Steve Davis said in a recent interview that he would spend hour upon hour upon hour knocking a ball up and down the spots to ensure he was cueing correctly. And of course it did him no harm. But he also went on to say later, in the same interview, that he wouldn't advise a youngster taking up the sport nowadays to spend so many hours doing that one exercise as he felt there were better ways of learning (which he didn't expand upon)

I have absolutely no argument with this at all, again what I don't agree with is the way the doctor that tried to help Ronnie was feted as a kind of guru that had turned this wreck of a man into some kind of snooker god, as if Ronnie had nothing to do with it, you have to remember Ronnie was a genius with a cue long before this man came along, I just asked why his methods are the new best thing when Ronnie was winning, but not one question was asked as to why the same methods failed him so miserably when he needed them the most, to me this is when a practice or method proves itself, not when everything is going great, but when the chips are down and you have to pull something out, that's the proof of the pudding, the defeat was laid squarely on Ronnie's shoulders and I feel that was unfair that his guru wasn't asked to explain himself, I don't believe this doctor is saying anything new, it's all old stuff rehashed for today, there is nothing groundbreaking in what he says or does(from the limited information I have, ).[/QUOTE]

I agree - the commentators at the world championships made far too much of it - made it sound like ronnie was running off to see his mum for a hug during the breaks. And I do agree its old stuff probably rehashed but I think the key difference is that not many current snooker players (i suspect) have someone to specifically focus on mind state and focus - in days gone by the coach would have dealt with that as part of the overall game

[pottr]

In terms of break making, typically there are 3 stages. The first 40-50 points are generally straightforward from safety shots and having reds knocked out. This is the easiest 40-50 points to get and so you will see many amateurs be capable of a 50 break. The second 40-50 require that you open the pack. This second stage of break making requires that you "torque" or "spin" the cue ball into the pack at some point. Either from blue or black or pink. The third 40-50 points is typically the most difficult because you are limited on what areas of the table you can play on and you also need a lot more cue ball control for the colors.

Strongly disagree

[tedisbill]

Strongly disagree

Yeah and me

[Smeeagain]

Strongly disagree

Thats very helpful. Can you elaborate and say which part(s) you disagree with and why. I have no opinion either way as I can't make a break of that size but interested to hear both sides of the coin

[itsnoteasy]

I have absolutely no argument with this at all, again what I don't agree with is the way the doctor that tried to help Ronnie was feted as a kind of guru that had turned this wreck of a man into some kind of snooker god, as if Ronnie had nothing to do with it, you have to remember Ronnie was a genius with a cue long before this man came along, I just asked why his methods are the new best thing when Ronnie was winning, but not one question was asked as to why the same methods failed him so miserably when he needed them the most, to me this is when a practice or method proves itself, not when everything is going great, but when the chips are down and you have to pull something out, that's the proof of the pudding, the defeat was laid squarely on Ronnie's shoulders and I feel that was unfair that his guru wasn't asked to explain himself, I don't believe this doctor is saying anything new, it's all old stuff rehashed for today, there is nothing groundbreaking in what he says or does(from the limited information I have, ).

I agree - the commentators at the world championships made far too much of it - made it sound like ronnie was running off to see his mum for a hug during the breaks. And I do agree its old stuff probably rehashed but I think the key difference is that not many current snooker players (i suspect) have someone to specifically focus on mind state and focus - in days gone by the coach would have dealt with that as part of the overall game[/QUOTE]
That's a fair point Smee, in days gone by coaches most likely would have dealt with issues of how to handle pressure etc, this could be why it's better to have a coach that's been there and done it, as they may have more insight into this area of the game.

[itsnoteasy]

It's a generalisation of what he does when breakbuilding and shouldn't be spotlighted on individual maximums or hundred breaks that he has made.
He says he gives himself options otherwise if playing precise position on a certain ball, a little bit out will mean having to play a recovery shot, so rather than attempt precise position for every shot, if he has the option he will play into an area where if he over or under hits a shot he will have another choice.
it's not that he can't play onto a single ball, he obviously can, it's just that he can't do it every single time with absolute certainty that he will get exact position.

The real reason that he and so many of the top pros make so many tons is that they use side a lot more than people believe they do. It looks like they are getting perfect position all the time but in fact they use trace amounts of side to make up for under or over hitting certain shots.
Take a look at his fastest ever max when he was really in the zone and count the number of time he uses side to stay in position. It isn't even thought about, it's just instinctively done because he knows simply by looking. And remember that when side is used it's because optimum position wasn't acheived, again showing the frailties of perfect single ball positional play.

As for Dr. Peters contribution to Ronnies performance in the championships, it's an unknown what Ronnies' mental state was during those seventeen days. As a known sufferer of bi-polar disorder (manic depression) he could very well have been on a depressive downer due to lack of endorphins in the brain, and if so then the doctors methods got him to the final playing a B game where before he could very well have jacked it in and given up.
Where his brain gets an overdose of endorphins and therefore in a manic state he doesn't need any help at all from anyone, when in a normal state like the rest of us, he probably uses the doctors methods to stop negative tactics from interfering with his focus, which is something we all could benefit from.
I could very well be wrong but that's the way I see it, no witchdoctoring going on.

Vmax this all started as I didn't believe Ronnie when in that interview he said he didn't have a clue where or what he was looking at when cueing, and along with that when he said he wasn't able to play position on a single ball, I'm not questioning how he break builds or if he plays into areas or leaves himself options of course he does, but it's a simple yes or no question do you believe Ronnie, hasn't got a clue what he's doing when cueing, and yes or no , do you believe him when he says he can't play on single reds for position, there is no hidden agenda to my questions, although some are making there own up , I was just surprised that some people took what he said in this interview literally .he didn't say I don't like to play on single balls, I prefer to leave options, or play into areas, he said, he couldn't do it, he kept running out of position, I don't think this should be taken literally. Are these questions hard to understand? I have tried to make them as clear as I can.

[pottr]

Fair enough... I'll bite.

First off, this unconscious mind stuff is ridiculous. I do not understand the constant need people feel to encapsulate things with terms and theories...

In terms of break making, typically there are 3 stages.

No. There's one stage. Pot the ball and get on the next ball, leaving an angle to get onto the ball after that... 3 shots at a time. That's it... Sure, there are simple situations that occur where you can think a couple of shots beyond that, but by no means are you worried about stages. You're simply trying to stay at the table.

The first 40-50 points are generally straightforward from safety shots and having reds knocked out. This is the easiest 40-50 points to get and so you will see many amateurs be capable of a 50 break.

This is the hardest time to make 40 or 50 points from a single visit. If you're playing anyone of a decent standard, the balls will not simply be open. If you are seeing reds from a straightforward safety shot then you have infact witnessed a poor safety shot.

The second 40-50 require that you open the pack. This second stage of break making requires that you "torque" or "spin" the cue ball into the pack at some point.

No harder or easier than at the start of the frame.

The third 40-50 points is typically the most difficult because you are limited on what areas of the table you can play on and you also need a lot more cue ball control for the colors.

Absolutely the opposite... This is the easiest time to make a break as you will have more positional routes open to you with less reds being on the table. It is simple to plot a course to clear the last four or five reds as they will likely be open. In fact, I would go as far to say that if I didn't clear up the last four or five reds (providing the colours are on their spots and there are no balls on the cushions) I have underperformed...