What's actually happening when you go "unconscious" ?

[vmax4steve]

Vmax this all started as I didn't believe Ronnie when in that interview he said he didn't have a clue where or what he was looking at when cueing, and along with that when he said he wasn't able to play position on a single ball, I'm not questioning how he break builds or if he plays into areas or leaves himself options of course he does, but it's a simple yes or no question do you believe Ronnie, hasn't got a clue what he's doing when cueing, and yes or no , do you believe him when he says he can't play on single reds for position, there is no hidden agenda to my questions, although some are making there own up , I was just surprised that some people took what he said in this interview literally .he didn't say I don't like to play on single balls, I prefer to leave options, or play into areas, he said, he couldn't do it, he kept running out of position, I don't think this should be taken literally. Are these questions hard to understand? I have tried to make them as clear as I can.

Yes I do believe him as he is a natural player just like Jimmy White and Alex Higgins. He may have had some coaching when he was a lad but I'm pretty sure that was only to get him to keep his head still and basic stuff like that. When you watch him play you see that he will drop the elbow on some shots, but when playing the same shot again he won't. That isn't something he has been coached to do otherwise he would play the same all the time but he doesn't, he isn't aware of his actual motor control.
I strongly believe that the best players in the world look at the object ball on the strike subconsciously and it is this that makes them as good as they are.

Players like Ronnie are the last ones to ask advice from about any part of the cue action, they don't know how they do it they just do it. If this is what you're going through when you play itsnoteasy then you have to learn to let it go, look at the object ball on the strike and just play.

As for his playing into areas I think it's you who have to re-appraise his actual words into what he meant rather than what he said. As for his fastest max, how many shots with side did you see ? I counted nine, so nine times he didn't get perfect position and had to use side. It might have been ten if he had side on the shot that split the pack but one can only tell by the reaction of the cue ball off the cushion so I'll stick with nine.

That's nine times that someone who can't play with side would have broken down, three times before he made fifty, nine recovery shots out of thirty six despite playing into areas. No one ever gets spot on position all the time and playing into areas give more options and having the ability to play recovery shots keeps the break going.

[vmax4steve]

Fair enough... I'll bite.

First off, this unconscious mind stuff is ridiculous.

Really pottr, are you aware of your fingers holding the cue, your arm going forwards and backwards, your eyes moving from cue ball to object ball, your thought processes as you calculate the speed of the stroke, the path of the cue ball, the angle of the pot, the exact contact point on the object ball. Or is it something that you just see and do.

I think that a lot of the beginners on this forum do think about everything all the time, believing that they have to, and it's this that holds them back from being relaxed enough to improve.


Absolutely the opposite... This is the easiest time to make a break as you will have more positional routes open to you with less reds being on the table. It is simple to plot a course to clear the last four or five reds as they will likely be open. In fact, I would go as far to say that if I didn't clear up the last four or five reds (providing the colours are on their spots and there are no balls on the cushions) I have underperformed...

I agree that last few reds and colours are the easiest to make a break from as the donkey work has already been done.

[pottr]

No of course not... You are completely unaware of it.

What I am saying, is that understanding this and actually applying it in your thoughts about snooker technique in any form... is ludicrous.

It's the same as the 'Where am I looking' thing for me... You do not need to worry about it. Practice sorts it our for you.

I think that a lot of the beginners on this forum do think about everything all the time, believing that they have to, and it's this that holds them back from being relaxed enough to improve.

Yes... 100% behind that.

[vmax4steve]

No of course not... You are completely unaware of it.

What I am saying, is that understanding this and actually applying it in your thoughts about snooker technique in any form... is ludicrous.

It's the same as the 'Where am I looking' thing for me... You do not need to worry about it. Practice sorts it our for you.

It's ludicrous for you pottr and it must be hard to understand those who don't do it naturally and like Ronnie you are the last person a bad player needs advice from as you can't express what it is you do as you are unaware of it.

Practise cannot sort out a player who does none of the good things, he needs to be made aware of it so that he can change for the better, but that will put conscious thoughts in his head that will occupy his mind to the detriment of his motor control. Like teaching raw recruits in the military to march, a cue action can be taught that will eventually become habit, but it will be a very long, arduous, expensive and eventually fruitless process for those with no natural ability as far as sighting and aiming goes.

[pottr]

It's ludicrous for you pottr and it must be hard to understand those who don't do it naturally and like Ronnie you are the last person a bad player needs advice from as you can't express what it is you do as you are unaware of it.

I have been mentoring a lad named Tom now for the last two years. When I first started playing with him, he had been playing twice a week for five years since the age of 13 and had a high break of 42.
In February he made his first ton, a break of 124 and afterwards I felt ridiculously proud when he was on the verge of tears thanking me for my patience with him... In truth, no thanks was necessary coz I just wanted a willing fielder for me But don't tell him that.

I taught him how to stand correctly. I taught him about the line of aim from the address position and how to approach the shot lowering on to that line. I taught him to hold the cue a touch lighter and about the chest contact point... Low and behold, he improved.

My son is 9 and has made 54 on the lineout, 33 or 36 (honestly can't recall) in a frame and I have taught him the same way. As he gets taller and the practice accumulates, he improves.

I do not subscribe to this point of contact voodoo... It may happen, but you absolutely do not need to be aware of it on any level... so why preach it? All it does is flood the mind with another thought in a game where all you need to do is put the ball in the pocket and get on the next one.
All my experience in the game tells me that it's irrelevant... I will not be swayed.

[pottr]

Also, a cue action is NOT natural! I deplore that phrase. ROS is not a natural snooker player. He was forged from hours upon hours of table time.

No player in history will ever pick up a cue and pot everything the first time they play.

[Terry Davidson]

Also, a cue action is NOT natural! I deplore that phrase. ROS is not a natural snooker player. He was forged from hours upon hours of table time.

No player in history will ever pick up a cue and pot everything the first time they play.

I agree with pottr here. What we call a 'natural' player is just a player who has learned to play very well at an early age.

One other point for vmax...ROS has been to probably every snooker coach out there, including Del Hill and Nic Barrow, who had a year's contract with him. I think a lot of the pros do get coaching or at least mentoring, especially on the mental side but also some technique issues. So I disagree with your statement that he's never had any coaching.

Terry

[pottr]

Exactly. He had his own table from the age of 8 and on top of that, his old boy had the belief in him to settle his table bill at the club monthly and to pay for top amateur players to ferry the young ROS to the top tournaments every single weekend.

If that's not manufactured talent then I could not tell you what it...

[j6uk]

Exactly his old boy had the belief in him to settle his table bill at the club monthly and to pay for top amateur players to ferry the young ROS to the top tournaments every single weekend.

yep i was there and saw it happen, and his old man showed him how to work hard. he sure did that, especially in the last say ten years

[itsnoteasy]

Yes I do believe him as he is a natural player just like Jimmy White and Alex Higgins. He may have had some coaching when he was a lad but I'm pretty sure that was only to get him to keep his head still and basic stuff like that. When you watch him play you see that he will drop the elbow on some shots, but when playing the same shot again he won't. That isn't something he has been coached to do otherwise he would play the same all the time but he doesn't, he isn't aware of his actual motor control.
I strongly believe that the best players in the world look at the object ball on the strike subconsciously and it is this that makes them as good as they are.

Players like Ronnie are the last ones to ask advice from about any part of the cue action, they don't know how they do it they just do it. If this is what you're going through when you play itsnoteasy then you have to learn to let it go, look at the object ball on the strike and just play.

As for his playing into areas I think it's you who have to re-appraise his actual words into what he meant rather than what he said. As for his fastest max, how many shots with side did you see ? I counted nine, so nine times he didn't get perfect position and had to use side. It might have been ten if he had side on the shot that split the pack but one can only tell by the reaction of the cue ball off the cushion so I'll stick with nine.

That's nine times that someone who can't play with side would have broken down, three times before he made fifty, nine recovery shots out of thirty six despite playing into areas. No one ever gets spot on position all the time and playing into areas give more options and having the ability to play recovery shots keeps the break going.

I just concentrate on getting me and the cue online, staying online , and cueing through that line , any more and it's too much for my pea brain to handle.

[pottr]

yep i was there and saw it happen, and his old man showed him how to work hard. he sure did that, especially in the last say ten years

Absolutely. That determination to better your performance and improve to the elite level, that's the real natural ability... Talent is common, the will to apply it perpetually is not.

To make it clear, when I say ROS is not a natural player, it's a massive compliment to the great man because I am stating how hard he has worked at his craft... There were no shortcuts for him... he grafted!

[tedisbill]

Absolutely. That determination to better your performance and improve to the elite level, that's the real natural ability... Talent is common, the will to apply it perpetually is not.

Absolutely. Great post.

[rightoncue89]

yep i was there and saw it happen, and his old man showed him how to work hard. he sure did that, especially in the last say ten years

Absolutely. That determination to better your performance and improve to the elite level, that's the real natural ability... Talent is common, the will to apply it perpetually is not.

To make it clear, when I say ROS is not a natural player, it's a massive compliment to the great man because I am stating how hard he has worked at his craft... There were no shortcuts for him... he grafted!

I agree with you on this, i do however think he has more natural ability than any other player, but its not his cue action etc...its things like how good his snooker mind is, he sees shots instantly, much faster than anybody else and that is something you cant teach.
He has a natural ability to adjust very quickly to table speeds.
Again that is feel and touch which you cant teach.
And he is a perfectionist, he isnt happy with being 'ok'..if he feels he has any fault he will try to fix it.
Its also why he hates watching players like mark king, because seeing somebody who does so many things wrong annoys him and he feels like watching bad snooker enforces bad habits in his own game. Whether its true he feels that or not or if he was just being ronnie nobody knows.

And then theres being able to use his left hand better than most people can their dominant hand!
These are all traits that some players have, but im not sure there is any other player who has all of them!

But he has said himself that people mistake his hard work for natural ability.
When in reality he used to spend 12 hours a day in his potting shed at the bottom of the garden or in the snooker hall.

He definately grafted to get where he is.

And even now hes putting the work in to get his head right, he is the best there has ever been and at his age he is still working to improve in anyway he can.

[ace man]

...i do however think he has more natural ability than any other player...

How on Earth can this be objectively measured???
How do you know if he's more gifted than you?

[pottr]

What's actually happening when you go "unconscious" ?

It can't be quantified...