Natural ability

[tedisbill]

I don't get all this. You just decide what shot you're playing while you're standing up, then get down and play it. There's never a "different" type of shot that requires me to look at something different. Every single shot I play requires I pot the ball and put the white in a specific position. I can happily play a cannon on a specific red while I'm looking at the object ball. You've already rehearsed the shot in your mind and picked the correct point to hit on the cue ball with the correct power.

Remember that it's not just as simple as saying I want the white in a very specific position, because the white is going to contact a very specific point on another ball first (the object ball). Pot the object ball to one side of the pocket or another and you've lost perfect control anyway.

Pick the shot you're playing while you're standing up, get down, watch the target and execute the shot.

[DandyA]

I don't teach focus on the CB at time of strike as I believe it shortens the line of aim of the cue down to just the "V' of the bridge to the back of the cueball

sorry Terry but I don't think that's true ... my chin on the cue is somewhere near the 3/4 split which means I can see around 30 to 36 inches of cue on the line of aim ... not the 9 to 12 inches you're suggesting ...

[alabadi]

sorry Terry but I don't think that's true ... my chin on the cue is somewhere near the 3/4 split which means I can see around 30 to 36 inches of cue on the line of aim ... not the 9 to 12 inches you're suggesting ...

you may have 36 inch of cue in front of you, however, you are not looking at the cue, your aim ( if you are a cueball focus type of player ) is from bridge to cueball. thats the line of aim you would be using from the tip of the cue to the cueball.

[Terry Davidson]

sorry Terry but I don't think that's true ... my chin on the cue is somewhere near the 3/4 split which means I can see around 30 to 36 inches of cue on the line of aim ... not the 9 to 12 inches you're suggesting ...

Yes, with an open bridge you can 'see' (in your peripheral vision) a bit more of the cue but it won't be much more than 15" or so however if you are able to see your chin in your vision then I suppose you could see more of the cue. In addition I have yet to see a player who has his chin at the 3/4 joint in the address position so you must have your grip hand well forward of the vertical at address (perhaps you have a centre-jointed cue?).

I've said the above sarcastically but in all seriousness, take a look at yourself in the address position any I think you will find for practical purposes you will use the length of cue over the bridge (9"-12") and perhaps a little more if you look down and the cue otherwise you would have to turn the head down and that's just not on.

Terry

[thelongbomber]

I don't get all this. You just decide what shot you're playing while you're standing up, then get down and play it. There's never a "different" type of shot that requires me to look at something different. Every single shot I play requires I pot the ball and put the white in a specific position. I can happily play a cannon on a specific red while I'm looking at the object ball. You've already rehearsed the shot in your mind and picked the correct point to hit on the cue ball with the correct power.

Remember that it's not just as simple as saying I want the white in a very specific position, because the white is going to contact a very specific point on another ball first (the object ball). Pot the object ball to one side of the pocket or another and you've lost perfect control anyway.

Pick the shot you're playing while you're standing up, get down, watch the target and execute the shot.

As you clearly stated, every shot you play. I don't see the game as so black/white and simply as visualization and execution. At the end of the day, I'm legally playing the game, striking the white ball and potting balls. I just do it differently. Over time, I discovered that by having a singular approach to cue action, I limited myself to how I could play the game. I allow myself the option to have different visual focus points so that I can have more options and capabilities. And because I have discovered it on my own through rigorous practice and experimentation, I know each approaches pros and cons - at least for myself anyways.

For example, one shot most people don't get is how to maneuver the white ball when the object ball is right over the pocket. People think there is either top spin, drag, and perhaps a few other shots they can play (cushion first with english etc). Based on past experience, they see only two or three positional possibilities with this kind of shot. I don't see this shot like everyone else. When I'm faced with this situation, I ignore the object ball on final strike and instead, focus my eyes on the cue ball. After all, I have to miss the object ball completely to not pot it. By doing this, I have come to learn of all the positional options I have at my disposal for the white ball that others typically miss. I can get the white ball wherever I want with this particular shot because I'm not worrying about the pot - its going to go in regardless. I can spin, throw, curve, skid, and stun the white in very specific ways and get it into positions others cant. This is just one of many examples.

It probably sounds ludicrous that a person could change cue and eye focus on a per shot basis, but I do it at times because I understand it within my own frame of reference. Sometimes, I go back to my old method when I'm trying to work on something specific or get into the zone. Sometimes, I'm object ball focused completely when my potting has disappeared or when I'm already in tune. Sometimes, when I know I'm on a fast cloth, I will change my approach to reap its benefits. I know sounds crazy, but not to me.

[DandyA]

sorry Terry but I don't think that's true ... my chin on the cue is somewhere near the 3/4 split which means I can see around 30 to 36 inches of cue on the line of aim ... not the 9 to 12 inches you're suggesting ...

Yes, with an open bridge you can 'see' (in your peripheral vision) a bit more of the cue but it won't be much more than 15" or so however if you are able to see your chin in your vision then I suppose you could see more of the cue. In addition I have yet to see a player who has his chin at the 3/4 joint in the address position so you must have your grip hand well forward of the vertical at address (perhaps you have a centre-jointed cue?).

I've said the above sarcastically but in all seriousness, take a look at yourself in the address position any I think you will find for practical purposes you will use the length of cue over the bridge (9"-12") and perhaps a little more if you look down and the cue otherwise you would have to turn the head down and that's just not on.

Terry

well I've done some measurements in the front address position (tip of cue close to the cue ball) ... I'm 6ft 1in by the way ... cue is 57.5in long and there's just over an inch sticking out behind my grip hand ... my chin touches the cue 21 inches from the butt and my forearm is vertical ... and I have almost exactly 30 inches of cue in my field of view ...

now, of course, if I am focussing on the CB or OB, the first good few inches of the cue will be terribly blurred but I don't think that's the issue - whilst preparing for the shot and trying to satisfy myself that my cue is on the line I want it to be, ie during feathering, my eyes and I would think most player's eyes will "dance" all over the place which in my case I think certainly includes glancing down (eyes only without moving my head) to see the closest part of the cue - and even if I don't glance down, my brain can still probably work out where the centre of the blurred cue is ...

so I think my point remains - I have 30 inches of cue available to do that (as I think most players do) ... it's actually totally irrelevant to this discussion whether I focus on the CB or OB during the delivery stroke - it's far too late to be worrying if the cue is on the correct line of aim as I (or anyone) delivers the cue!

[Terry Davidson]

DandyA:

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my explanation. Yes, between chin and tip there's over 30" however when actually down in the address position and sighting the shot the eyes should be on the cueball at some point and when checking everything a player will only use the part of the cue he can see clearly in his peripheral vision when focused on the back of the cueball. This distance is actually the effective aiming length and I would say is primarily from the 'V' of the bridge to the tip and maybe a few inches behind the 'V'.

To see any more of the cue clearly the player would have to lower his eyes and of course that's not a good idea. I would think most players will use somewhere between 12" to 15" to sight the cue when in the address position. As you are a CB player at the moment of strike I would imagine you are using only the part of the cue that's fairly clear and defined in your peripheral vision and not the full 30" or so of the cue.

I strongly disagree with you that 'most players glance down to see the closest part of the cue' as this would mean looking away from the shot and down towards the floor. If you are allowing your eyes to wander in this way then you should consider not moving your focus off the cueball (and OB when feathering).

Terry

[thelongbomber]

DandyA:

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my explanation. Yes, between chin and tip there's over 30" however when actually down in the address position and sighting the shot the eyes should be on the cueball at some point and when checking everything a player will only use the part of the cue he can see clearly in his peripheral vision when focused on the back of the cueball. This distance is actually the effective aiming length and I would say is primarily from the 'V' of the bridge to the tip and maybe a few inches behind the 'V'.

To see any more of the cue clearly the player would have to lower his eyes and of course that's not a good idea. I would think most players will use somewhere between 12" to 15" to sight the cue when in the address position. As you are a CB player at the moment of strike I would imagine you are using only the part of the cue that's fairly clear and defined in your peripheral vision and not the full 30" or so of the cue.

I strongly disagree with you that 'most players glance down to see the closest part of the cue' as this would mean looking away from the shot and down towards the floor. If you are allowing your eyes to wander in this way then you should consider not moving your focus off the cueball (and OB when feathering).

Terry

Enlightening insight as I sometimes am a CB player. Never considered that I might be using my cue in peripheral vision as an aiming guide.

[DandyA]

well I've done some measurements in the front address position (tip of cue close to the cue ball) ... I'm 6ft 1in by the way ... cue is 57.5in long and there's just over an inch sticking out behind my grip hand ... my chin touches the cue 21 inches from the butt and my forearm is vertical ... and I have almost exactly 30 inches of cue in my field of view ...

now, of course, if I am focussing on the CB or OB, the first good few inches of the cue will be terribly blurred but I don't think that's the issue - whilst preparing for the shot and trying to satisfy myself that my cue is on the line I want it to be, ie during feathering, my eyes and I would think most player's eyes will "dance" all over the place which in my case I think certainly includes glancing down (eyes only without moving my head) to see the closest part of the cue - and even if I don't glance down, my brain can still probably work out where the centre of the blurred cue is ...

so I think my point remains - I have 30 inches of cue available to do that (as I think most players do) ... it's actually totally irrelevant to this discussion whether I focus on the CB or OB during the delivery stroke - it's far too late to be worrying if the cue is on the correct line of aim as I (or anyone) delivers the cue!

DandyA:

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my explanation. Yes, between chin and tip there's over 30" however when actually down in the address position and sighting the shot the eyes should be on the cueball at some point and when checking everything a player will only use the part of the cue he can see clearly in his peripheral vision when focused on the back of the cueball. This distance is actually the effective aiming length and I would say is primarily from the 'V' of the bridge to the tip and maybe a few inches behind the 'V'.

To see any more of the cue clearly the player would have to lower his eyes and of course that's not a good idea. I would think most players will use somewhere between 12" to 15" to sight the cue when in the address position. As you are a CB player at the moment of strike I would imagine you are using only the part of the cue that's fairly clear and defined in your peripheral vision and not the full 30" or so of the cue.

I strongly disagree with you that 'most players glance down to see the closest part of the cue' as this would mean looking away from the shot and down towards the floor. If you are allowing your eyes to wander in this way then you should consider not moving your focus off the cueball (and OB when feathering).

Terry

Hi Terry,

thanks for your reply and I appreciate your input ... just to be clear, I didn't say 'most players glance down to see the closest part of the cue' ... I said (as highlighted above) that I personally do and that I have 30 inches of cue available (as I think most players do) but I didn't say they looked at it ...

what each player does is, in my opinion, up to them ... Stephen Hendry is well known for sometimes glancing at the pocket whilst he's feathering which many would think either irrelevant or wrong but it didn't seem to do him any harm ...

so if I want to look at the 30 inches of cue I have available as I drop into position or as I'm feathering I will do - I don't see any harm in it, it's simply part of my proprioception (see notes below) ...

note (1) ... I was watching a much shorter player than me playing and indeed his chin was about centre cue with much less cue in front of him - so clearly the distance between the "v" of the bridge and eyes is (obviously) governed by the length of one's arm - so can I change my statement to "players around 6ft or so or more with their bridge arm fairly straight should have 30 inches of cue within their field of view ...

note (2) ... proprioception - someone mentioned it earlier on TSF and it's such a lovely word I had to use it ... hopefully I used it right ... although someone else has a signature which reads something like "I like using long words I don't really understand because then people think I'm photosynthesis" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

[DandyA]

Enlightening insight as I sometimes am a CB player. Never considered that I might be using my cue in peripheral vision as an aiming guide.

I think players use more clues than they probably realise to get the cue on the line of aim ... as part of this proprioception (my favourite word of the day), a good player will know exactly where their feet are, their hips are, their back arm and the butt of the cue (which of course they can't see), their head and chin (ditto) and their bridge arm, and the cue in their field of view ... all these things help to ensure a good player has lined up the shot correctly ... they might not be conscious of it, but they do know it ...

btw, I did say a good player ... which is still a work in progress for me ...

[Byrom]

You need some natural ability to do this

[DandyA]

You need some natural ability to do this

yeah, great shot! also love Joe Perry's facial expression afterwards

[thelongbomber]

I think players use more clues than they probably realise to get the cue on the line of aim ... as part of this proprioception (my favourite word of the day), a good player will know exactly where their feet are, their hips are, their back arm and the butt of the cue (which of course they can't see), their head and chin (ditto) and their bridge arm, and the cue in their field of view ... all these things help to ensure a good player has lined up the shot correctly ... they might not be conscious of it, but they do know it ...

btw, I did say a good player ... which is still a work in progress for me ...

I wouldn't say I would know the location of my feet or hips. I pay a lot of attention to how my grip "feels", where my eyes are, and where the butt of my cue is. I also pay a lot of thought to the length of the cue sticking out. I use all of these in varying degrees in ball striking. I believe i DO use the cue as aiming guide a lot. This would explain my generally poor results off the cushion as I have very little of the cue to aim with and I generally rely more on a feeling of my grip hand for aiming as my visual senses can't tell me much.

[itsnoteasy]

I wouldn't say I would know the location of my feet or hips. I pay a lot of attention to how my grip "feels", where my eyes are, and where the butt of my cue is. I also pay a lot of thought to the length of the cue sticking out. I use all of these in varying degrees in ball striking. I believe i DO use the cue as aiming guide a lot. This would explain my generally poor results off the cushion as I have very little of the cue to aim with and I generally rely more on a feeling of my grip hand for aiming as my visual senses can't tell me much.

Just play a frame with your eyes shut all the time LB, then see how much your vision helps.