cue ball and object ball players

[vmax4steve]

itsnoteasy, I agree with you and I think that's the key. It should be subconcious and I think if a player pots balls to a high standard then telling them to look at the object ball on delivery if they don't already might mess them up. Personally for a beginner I would say look at the object ball but I think the point Chris Henry is making is should you change someone just to make them 'textbook' when it could harm their game.

If you already pot to a good standard then you are looking at the object ball, and telling someone who already unknowingly does that will put an unneccessary thought in his head and muck up his natural eye rhythm.
Someone who doesn't look at the object ball will be a poor potter and will need to be told to do so. Whether he can or not will be down to him. Some people just can't do it, Les Edwards for example, and to go through all the other do's and don't's of snooker without addressing this most important issue first is the sign of either a poor coach or one who knows he can milk the bloke for a long time.

Personally if Chris Henry thinks that the top pros look at the cue ball then I wouldn't even trust him to teach kids how to tie their shoelaces.

And as for Nic Barrow, well he's always coming up with something 'new' that will improve everyones game. He knows, as do all coaches, that hand and eye is a natural thing that some do better than others, and that the hand and eye needed for snooker is to know the one actual target from three possibles and to focus on that when lining up the shot and again on the strike.

The actual target is the contact point on the object ball.
Hey! but let's not tell them the crucial importance of that, let them keep coming back time and again spending more money and trying out 'new' rituals and 'new' gadgets and 'new' theories about how even someone who doesn't look at what he's doing can still improve

[guernseygooner]

I gave this looking at CB a bash last night. Lasted 2 shots! Only tons of practice will develop your own eye rhythm as it will tie in with your cue action. Mine is looking at the CB when pulling the cue back and then my eyes flick to the OB at the last moment. I don't consciously do it, its just my rhythm. If I force myself to stare at the OB, that causes problems as well.

If I miss a pot under pressure it will be because I have looked at the OB and then taken my eye off it too early to see if it is travelling to the pocket. This causes other problem like snatching at impact and body movement and is the hardest thing to eradicate from your game.

[vmax4steve]

I gave this looking at CB a bash last night. Lasted 2 shots! Only tons of practice will develop your own eye rhythm as it will tie in with your cue action. Mine is looking at the CB when pulling the cue back and then my eyes flick to the OB at the last moment. I don't consciously do it, its just my rhythm. If I force myself to stare at the OB, that causes problems as well.

If I miss a pot under pressure it will be because I have looked at the OB and then taken my eye off it too early to see if it is travelling to the pocket. This causes other problem like snatching at impact and body movement and is the hardest thing to eradicate from your game.

Great post and I concur absolutely.

It's this flick of the eyes to the object ball at the last moment that is so very hard to see when watching the pros who do the same.

[pottr]

itsnoteasy,
guernseygooner,
vmax

All summed it up perfectly... If you're a good player, thinking about it will screw you up. If you're a beginner, you have other things to worry about like the basics.

So... from that, we should all conclude that YOU NEVER NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IT EVER!

Where you look is important... But practice really will sort it out.

[CoachGavin]

cue ball and object ball players

Personally I know someone from my club and his highest break is 143. He is a good potter yet he definately looks at the cue ball so I don't think you can say that every player who pots well IS looking at the object ball. I think the majority do and that's what I teach my students but there are always exceptions.

[pottr]

More evidence to support my conclusion...

I had a whole month when I was about 19 looking at the cue ball and I recall making a 128 total clearance in a league match in the first week or two of doing it which made me think I had found a 'Eureka' moment.

You can pot balls looking at the cueball, but only if your technique is sound enough for you to remain perfectly still... Which is utterly exhausting.

I found that I was being drained of my energy very quickly and my pace around the table had slowed dramatically. Also... forget about long pots... The distance between CB and OB is such that any movement will be exaggerated and cause you to miss...

I have no doubt it can work for some... But I think if you're aware of it, you're screwed.

[j6uk]

You can pot balls looking at the cueball, but only if your technique is sound enough for you to remain perfectly still... Which is utterly exhausting.

key word for me. can't wait to be under it and looking at the white

[itsnoteasy]

After much thought and some great posts and some help for my little brain, I have come to this conclusion, yes you can look at the cue ball as we all have seen people pot with their eyes shut, or looking away, to me that's just the same, they are online, they have stayed perfectly still and they have delivered the cue perfectly straight, if you do all those things perfectly it doesn't matter where you are looking, the thing is you would have to be perfect every time(this I'm guessing is where Pottrs exhaustion kicked in)
If you get down online and look at the target I reckon you have a chance of your eyes and brain sorting out minute adjustments if that cue is off line or something like that, so you have a chance of recovering the shot while playing it, but more importantly you have a line to send your cue down(the line of aim) if you are looking at the cue ball the line of aim stops at the front face of the cue ball so it must be harder to keep that cue perfectly on it, in basketball they look at the hoop not the ball because they need that connection between eyes hands brain and target, now I have no doubt they could dunk it in looking away from the target, just by playing the shot through in their mind and then playing it for real, but it would be a lot harder as everything would have to be perfect.
I also agree with GG and Pottr, that staring at the cue ball is a waste of time (I know this from personal experience) as J6 once said to someone," I see a lot of staring but not much looking" you have to find your own rhythm but I'm convinced that at the end of it all you have to be looking at the ob, how you get there, ghost ball etc etc, I'm not sure that matters but to send that cue ball and cue down the line you have to be looking at the target and that's the ob.
There will always be exceptions but I have asked for examples of pros who consistently look at the cue ball to be posted up, and none have ,so I'm thinking they don't really, they may on some shots, but as a rule I think they are all ob players, if what Chris Henry says is true that the majority of the top sixteen are looking at the cue ball, there should be thousands of clips easily found, but there aren't.
And definitely lastly, none of the above maters a hoot if you can't get online, stay still and push the cue through straight which is what Pottr is on about when he says this doesn't matter that much as if you do the first three right you will pot the ball anyway, and he's right, didn't Chris Small say they were ninety five percent of the shot?

[vmax4steve]

After much thought and some great posts and some help for my little brain, I have come to this conclusion, yes you can look at the cue ball as we all have seen people pot with their eyes shut, or looking away, to me that's just the same, they are online, they have stayed perfectly still and they have delivered the cue perfectly straight

Yes we can all pot with our eyes shut, and I have seen Alain Robidoux do the trick shot where he gets down into his stance, gives his cue to someone, gets it back and puts it back in his bridge and pots the ball all whilst looking away from either the cue ball, the object ball or the pocket.
I dare say that if Robidoux chose to play every shot while looking away and relying only on his muscle memory he too would be mentally exhausted very soon.

[Ramon]

Pro players, looking at the OB just 2 seconds before the tip touches the CB. One of the reasons is they do not need more time and consentratie On OB then Required). For these guys pots a ball is easier than drinking a glass of water. And that's what C Henry does not see. Because it all goes so fast. Look at this picture. This is recorded with a slow motion camera. You can clearly see where this legend looking at !!!!!. If you see him play, you can not see this, because it all goes by so fast.!!!!

[CoachGavin]

cue ball and object ball players

yes. I agree with much that has been said. I find it much easier and more natural to look at the object ball. I also believe that this is how players should be first taught and is the way I coach. There will always be exceptions just like there are players with strange cue actions or stances or grips but that doesn't mean you go around telling everyone to copy it using the fact a pro does it as an excuse For instance I wouldnt start teaching players to play like Dave Harold or Joe Swail and say well they are pros so copy them. They are exceptions and their technique works for them and I think the eye thing is the same. Some players look at the cue ball and it works for them but I think the way to coach is to concentrate on the object ball.

[Ramon]

yes. I agree with much that has been said. I find it much easier and more natural to look at the object ball. I also believe that this is how players should be first taught and is the way I coach. There will always be exceptions just like there are players with strange cue actions or stances or grips but that doesn't mean you go around telling everyone to copy it using the fact a pro does it as an excuse For instance I wouldnt start teaching players to play like Dave Harold or Joe Swail and say well they are pros so copy them. They are exceptions and their technique works for them and I think the eye thing is the same. Some players look at the cue ball and it works for them but I think the way to coach is to concentrate on the object ball.

I was talking about C Henry. and what he's saying about pro's. but I agree with you. for each player is a matter of personal preference. If that works for you!! why not keep doing it? Although, I think that they are not many exceptions to this issue ( specially when we talk about players of high level )) . But that's just my opinion .

[vmax4steve]

yes. I agree with much that has been said. I find it much easier and more natural to look at the object ball. I also believe that this is how players should be first taught and is the way I coach. There will always be exceptions just like there are players with strange cue actions or stances or grips but that doesn't mean you go around telling everyone to copy it using the fact a pro does it as an excuse For instance I wouldnt start teaching players to play like Dave Harold or Joe Swail and say well they are pros so copy them. They are exceptions and their technique works for them and I think the eye thing is the same. Some players look at the cue ball and it works for them but I think the way to coach is to concentrate on the object ball.

I honestly believe that it's a genuine mistake on anyones part if they think that a player of a really good standard is looking at the cue ball on the strike. The last split second glance up to the object ball is very difficult to spot in those players who sight that way.
I don't believe that the eye thing is a different way of doing it that works for some people, I believe that the likes of Dave Harold and Joe Swail are good enough to be pro players because they do the basics correctly, and one of those basics is to look at the object ball when lining up the shot and again on the strike.
Everything else about a players cue action comes from this one absolute basic, and whether you have a short jabby action or a long smooth action or hold the cue with only one finger or the complete hand is irrelevant.
You can even get away with movement on the shot if you're looking at the contact point on the strike, Alex Higgins, Marco Fu, Mark Selby, Alan McManus all move/ed on the shot to some extent but it didn't stop them from being great players.

It's looking at the object ball that keeps the cue on the line of aim without having to, as pottr puts it, mentally exhaust yourself through excess concentration about every other aspect of the cue action, filling your head with unneccessary thought.
This is a very big problem for all those who aren't good potters because they don't look at the object ball, the incredible concentration they have to go through in order to pot the simplest of balls, while somebody who naturally looks at the object ball can stroll around the table in a relaxed manner and simply point his cue where he is looking and bang ! in it goes time after time.

A coach can point out to such a player the finer points of his cue action that fall down now and again and make him a more consistant player. A coach who has someone who doesn't look at the object ball has to teach him to pot balls from the get go and if that coach hasn't spotted, or indeed hasn't bothered to spot, the fact that said player doesn't look at the object ball, then that player will never ever improve as his head will be filled with everything except what he does wrong and he will have no idea why he's constantly failing despite the extreme concentration he's putting into it.
These sort of players believe that the pros are concentrating just as hard as he is and that they must be superhuman or something rather than naturally pointing their cue's where they are looking 90% of the time.

I would ask all those who are inconsistant payers like myself to think about what they remember when they have made a good break or played a really good session or played one great pot instead of obsessing about the possible negatives when they miss.
I think you will all find that you will remember seeing the object ball really well above all, seeing it really well because you were actually looking at it. Not staring at it to the point where your eyes glaze over but simply looking at it when striking the cue ball for however long you naturally need to. For some it's a split second, for others about a second or two, it varies but it's essential and all the good and great players do it.

I'm a great player when I do it but it only lasts for five minutes tops and then I'm simply crap, but I play snooker only to find those five minutes. I've tried hard to force myself to look at the object ball on the strike but it simply mucks up the natural eye rhythm that I fall into on those rare occasions and trying too hard only makes me worse. I'm an OCD and my head is filled with too much thought most of the time and my mind is empty very rarely and when it empties, and I happen to be playing snooker at the time, then my game clicks until the point where I become aware of it and it immediately disappears.

I also believe that an individuals clarity of eyesight has a huge bearing on it. pottr says that his eyesight is much better than the norm of 20/20 and because of that he can probably pick out the contact point on the object ball in a split second, unaware that he's doing so, without having to search for it like I do through my lens distorted myopic peepers that one day see clearly and another day do not.
Or maybe that's just me looking for an excuse, like Les Edwards needing a new table, or a new cue with a new tip and new chalk and a new coach, rather than just accepting the fact that he needs to look at the object ball where I need to find a way to empty my mind of all the crap that taking up space within it.
Like this post !

Snooker is a mind game after all.

[lesedwards]

Or maybe that's just me looking for an excuse, like Les Edwards needing a new table, or a new cue with a new tip and new chalk and a new coach, rather than just accepting the fact that he needs to look at the object ball where I need to find a way to empty my mind of all the crap that taking up space within it.

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There goes VMAX picking on me.... I can take it. I have been at the range working on my golf game the last few days and I have come to realize that I was told with my arm I would never be a very good golfer but I proved everyone wrong. Weak grip and all hunched over with my crooked arm but at 50 I can still move the driver out 300 yards with a nice draw all because I do the rest the mechanics correct. So no more excuses, yes I look totally cramped up over the Snooker table with my bridge hand half off the table and could probably get away with about a 50" cue but if I get the rest of the mechanics correct such as looking at the OB, staying down on the shot and accelerating through the cue ball I will master this game as I am determined to.

[pottr]

I honestly believe that it's a genuine mistake on anyones part if they think that a player of a really good standard is looking at the cue ball on the strike. The last split second glance up to the object ball is very difficult to spot in those players who sight that way.

I respect your opinion Steve, you talk more sense than most on here... But I assure you, there are decent players who look at the cue ball. I think it's wrong that they're even aware of it, but they are out there.