knocking a break in with an i phone one yer head and a lump o wood worth 20 quid?

[Byrom]

This wasn't you Byrom was it ?? i thought you just found it somewhere, some people seem to think it's actually you ??? please clarify mate

No its not me - I just found it and thought that's a good angle I would like to see this camera angle in a tournament - or a pro doing it using google glass - I would watch it over and over - think it is useful to see although the editing is a bit rubbish.

If it was me I would have dished

Sorry for opening a box of frogs with the side issue but I have to say I agree with V-max entirely. I don't really know any good player that does not know how and when to use side and thought most coaches teach people how to use it rather than be frightened of it.

Various shots come into the game all the time and touches of side in the balls are very useful in positional play - learning these shots are part and parcel of the game for me.

[jrc750]

But now that it is shown he is not actually using side surely all peoples comments about the shots are now wrong !!!!

[itsnoteasy]

I don't think it's a bag of worms Byrom, it's a very good question, when do you introduce side into a learners game?
He does use side, just not on every shot.
I have looked again and it may be just camera angles that are making it look like he's lined up to the right of centre of the cue ball.

[Byrom]

I don't think it's a bag of worms Byrom, it's a very good question, when do you introduce side into a learners game?
He does use side, just not on every shot.

Very good question - I would say get your technique and the basics right first but I learned by asking and experimenting - a little at a time as I went along - ask your coach and your mates questions get him and them to show you a few things.

You never stop learning at this game v-max mentioned one particular shot - a cutback black where you throw it in with a bit of side - practiced that one a lot to split the pack and spin the white off with side to either stay on the black side or up into mid table - There are a few more too that I am sure he knows about too - the dreaded finished straight on a black shot where you need to create an angle by screwing with side to open up the angle when the white comes back off the cushion - this particular shot was useful to learn two fold - one it helps you get out of a situation and two its a little unpredictable and unreliable so it actually helps you learn the importance of not finishing straight and having to play it lol. Then there is that impossible shot where a ball is covering the natural potting angle slightly - you need to keep the break going you are on for your first ton - thankfully someone showed you to play a soft swerve with side - or you need to thicken up the angle to stop you finishing straight or maybe you like using a bit of helping side which I too find useful.

Then there are the cushions and use of side very useful to understand how to use them - I also use side on safety shots too when you need to swing the ball around the angles for example or find a gap or narrow an angle to get back to balk. Learning billiards first helped me back in the day with side but many pool players are masters of using side too.

If you are on a match stable the cloth is thinner and the table more responsive - the ball throws off more so this is why people often advise to cut it out side - not as important and you don't need to be as aggressive but I still use bits of side on a match table to aid the positional line when I play on one as do many others - it is not needed all the time though obviously - but on a club table the use of side is far more useful and reliable I would say - coaches often forget this as they play on thinner cloth steel blocked tables unlike many of the mere mortals like us that might not get near one - they actually play a different game to us.

There are Lots of little tricks and things with side to learn - the side and the spin of the white reverses off the cushions and I learned lots by messing and having a laugh with my mates with that flash shot trick shot comp we had regularly. Top spin banana love that one - get someone to show you.

It can become a habit for some who love sending the ball all over the table and doing a bit of the flash stuff but its fun - tedisbill made a important remark that he did not want to be a pro - snooker and this forum is not just about being a pro it is for people who love snooker and just play in leagues and want to make regular 50 breaks and have a laugh in the club - perhaps compete against the good players more - and yes people do forget that a little perhaps.

[culraven]

Cracking video, like others have said needs editing, my only other comment would be any one that spends more on there phone than on there cue needs to get there prorities sorted!

[coomsey76]

Nic Barrow also put one of these things up although he used a sports camera.

Byrom...in yours I did notice a bit (just a touch) of head movement during the delivery but otherwise this is a very good way to show a student what exactly is going on.

I have a GoPro HD camera now and I intend to make one of these up too and try and load it up to youtube. These camera will also do 120 frames per second so they are very useful in looking at what the grip is doing too

Terry

This must be the video you are on about Tel.....

[vmax4steve]

Very good question - I would say get your technique and the basics right first but I learned by asking and experimenting - a little at a time as I went along - ask your coach and your mates questions get him and them to show you a few things.

You never stop learning at this game v-max mentioned one particular shot - a cutback black where you throw it in with a bit of side - practiced that one a lot to split the pack and spin the white off with side to either stay on the black side or up into mid table - There are a few more too that I am sure he knows about too - the dreaded finished straight on a black shot where you need to create an angle by screwing with side to open up the angle when the white comes back off the cushion - this particular shot was useful to learn two fold - one it helps you get out of a situation and two its a little unpredictable and unreliable so it actually helps you learn the importance of not finishing straight and having to play it lol. Then there is that impossible shot where a ball is covering the natural potting angle slightly - you need to keep the break going you are on for your first ton - thankfully someone showed you to play a soft swerve with side - or you need to thicken up the angle to stop you finishing straight or maybe you like using a bit of helping side which I too find useful.

Then there are the cushions and use of side very useful to understand how to use them - I also use side on safety shots too when you need to swing the ball around the angles for example or find a gap or narrow an angle to get back to balk. Learning billiards first helped me back in the day with side but many pool players are masters of using side too.

If you are on a match stable the cloth is thinner and the table more responsive - the ball throws off more so this is why people often advise to cut it out side - not as important and you don't need to be as aggressive but I still use bits of side on a match table to aid the positional line when I play on one as do many others - it is not needed all the time though obviously - but on a club table the use of side is far more useful and reliable I would say - coaches often forget this as they play on thinner cloth steel blocked tables unlike many of the mere mortals like us that might not get near one - they actually play a different game to us.

There are Lots of little tricks and things with side to learn - the side and the spin of the white reverses off the cushions and I learned lots by messing and having a laugh with my mates with that flash shot trick shot comp we had regularly. Top spin banana love that one - get someone to show you.

It can become a habit for some who love sending the ball all over the table and doing a bit of the flash stuff but its fun - tedisbill made a important remark that he did not want to be a pro - snooker and this forum is not just about being a pro it is for people who love snooker and just play in leagues and want to make regular 50 breaks and have a laugh in the club - perhaps compete against the good players more - and yes people do forget that a little perhaps.

Excellent post Byrom, I agree entirely.

I learned to play with side on an Arco UK pool table with full size US balls with the bigger cue ball. It was very difficult to play the screw shot with that bigger cue ball and pub cues with their screw in tips, and although I learned to do so better than anyone else in our team, one of our team members was an old bloke who used to play billiards and snooker with the old crystalate balls. He would float that big cue ball around the pool table using side on almost every shot, and was very difficult to beat. I watched him closely and tried it myself but it was a bit hit and miss so I would only do it on easy pots.
Then I read Ray Reardons 'Classic Snooker' book and learned the mysteries of side and how to do it properly. I came unstuck in an inter league pool match away to Exeter 'A' played on a table with Simonis napless cloth where the cue ball behaved very differently indeed, and I lost all three of my frames. I didn't stop playing with side though, I learned from that experience how tables with a worn nap, or indeed napless cloths, needed to be played a bit differently.

All the current pros learned to play on club tables, learned to use side and have adapted that to the modern pro table conditions that are more responsive. They still play with side as no one ever plays perfect position all the time or gets good running all the time during a break. Side is part and parcel of the game of snooker as it is with all cue sports and simply saying no is a daft stance to take.

What do you want to do when on 25 and faced with a dead straight black off it's spot that you either roll in and play a safety or screw back with reverse side for the next red ?

Playing with side is a simple issue of learning to adjust your aiming to compensate for the throw of the cue ball and you learn how your cue and tip behave by experimentation, see how far you miss the pot by and adjust accordingly. Start by aiming thicker for every shot you play with side, when high on the black aim for the near jaw with both check and running side, when low on the black aim for the far jaw both with check and running side.

Someone once posted that this was wrong, that surely you have to aim thinner on the same angle when using running side if you have to aim thicker when using check side. But that isn't true and it's simply down to how the sidespin on the cue ball makes it behave a little differently according to the direction of the nap of the cloth, which is the reason why my first match on a napless cloth buggered my game up.

When high on the black playing with check side the cue ball will deflect off the line of aim on contact with the tip and arc along the cloth with the cue ball spinning in the same direction of the nap, come back onto and then beyond the actual contact point for a plain ball shot, so thicker aiming is required for the cue ball to come back onto the actual contact point needed for the pot.
The same shot played with running side means the cue ball is spinning against the nap of the cloth so that although it will deflect off the tip on contact, meaning thicker aiming, it doesn't arc along the cloth as it does when spinning in the same direction of the nap and you aim thicker purely to compensate for the throw of the cue ball from the tip.

Now this needs to be adjusted for the differing pace of each shot needed and on some shots you will find that the pace of the shot means that no compensation for aiming is needed at all, like on the break off shot where the cue ball will come back onto the actual point your aiming at due to the distance and the pace of the shot and the fact that the cue ball is travelling with the nap rather than across it.
As Byrom says you need to experiment but aiming thicker is the template from which you make your adjustments.


99% of us will never get near a pro table and for those of us that play on heavy napped tables all our lives side is a must if you want to have fun on the table and improve your game. After seeing Terry in the Canadian amateurs recently playing rather badly on heavy napped club tables I rest my case. His coaching stance on the side issue certainly wasn't any use to him there.

Let's see him jump right down my throat after that little mention

[Giggity1984]

In both of those videos the player got down on the shot much quicker than me!!!!!!!!!!!

If I got down as quick as them I'd miss everything. Weird to see it from that perspective. Be good to get Ronnie to wear a head cam whilst potting.

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

Do you even know my 'coaching stance' on side? I'll bet you don't since I do teach the effects of side to my students and I use it myself. Virtually every player uses side on the break anyway.

The only thing I disagree with is using 'helping side' with no cushion involved as I believe all it does is increase the difficulty of the pot for no actual gain. I also teach using side or a swerve shot for those pots partially covered by another ball, and I use this myself in matches.

So what is my coaching stance on side then that you disagree with. I think most players would agree with my 'coaching stance on side', but please give us your knowledgeable opinion, if it differs, as I would like to try it out and see how it works, who knows, you may have something to teach us besides the eye thing.

So I miss one crucial ball in a Seniors match which cost me 3rd or better place and get frustrated in trying to hit an impossible snooker and you place your whole evaluation of me and my coaching methods on that? Here's your happy face too which of course makes everything alright...have I got that right?

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

If there is one shot I learned to play that made me well pleased with myself, it has to be the reverse side shot off the black, makes you feel like a proper player lol.

[ADR147]

vmax:

Do you even know my 'coaching stance' on side? I'll bet you don't since I do teach the effects of side to my students and I use it myself. Virtually every player uses side on the break anyway.

The only thing I disagree with is using 'helping side' with no cushion involved as I believe all it does is increase the difficulty of the pot for no actual gain. I also teach using side or a swerve shot for those pots partially covered by another ball, and I use this myself in matches.

So what is my coaching stance on side then that you disagree with. I think most players would agree with my 'coaching stance on side', but please give us your knowledgeable opinion, if it differs, as I would like to try it out and see how it works, who knows, you may have something to teach us besides the eye thing.

So I miss one crucial ball in a Seniors match which cost me 3rd or better place and get frustrated in trying to hit an impossible snooker and you place your whole evaluation of me and my coaching methods on that? Here's your happy face too which of course makes everything alright...have I got that right?

Terry

nic barrow is not a fan of helping side either - me i love it!

[vmax4steve]

vmax:

Do you even know my 'coaching stance' on side? I'll bet you don't since I do teach the effects of side to my students and I use it myself. Virtually every player uses side on the break anyway.

The only thing I disagree with is using 'helping side' with no cushion involved as I believe all it does is increase the difficulty of the pot for no actual gain. I also teach using side or a swerve shot for those pots partially covered by another ball, and I use this myself in matches.

So what is my coaching stance on side then that you disagree with. I think most players would agree with my 'coaching stance on side', but please give us your knowledgeable opinion, if it differs, as I would like to try it out and see how it works, who knows, you may have something to teach us besides the eye thing.

So I miss one crucial ball in a Seniors match which cost me 3rd or better place and get frustrated in trying to hit an impossible snooker and you place your whole evaluation of me and my coaching methods on that? Here's your happy face too which of course makes everything alright...have I got that right?

Terry

Your coaching stance on side on this forum is to not use it, you state that every time the subject comes up. Learn to hit the ball straight first is your mantra, and that's as far as you get on this forum, but that doesn't really help anyone who's struggling make a 50+ break on club tables with heavy napped cloths.
Very few of us have the advantage of our own home table, set up to pro conditions with a fast cloth and big pockets. Look at how you struggled when at Les Edwards house, how you struggled at the Canadian amateurs, not just that simple blue but the way you played penny ball snooker and ran for cover when out of position rather than have a go at something with a bit of side on it.

I felt I was watching a player in my local league protecting a 30 handicap start rather than a master coach who knows all the shots.
So you can't play the way you can at home on a club table, so what ! change your game, you have the knowledge, the experience and the shots.

As for me teaching you or anyone else about the vagueries of side, I have given the basic template, that I got from Ray Reardons book, from which to work from, after that it's down to the individual to practise, get the feel for the cue ball and his own cue and the response he gets from it, and make it a shot that doesn't require deliberate thought but simply happens when needed.

Helping side does work, it's subtle and is usually only about inches of difference in regards to positional play but can matter greatly in whether you get yourself the right angle for the next shot. It also helps with potting, especially the stun shot that's just off straight that requires a lot of power when hit plain ball, can be hit a lot less hard with a bit of helping side as the cue ball will come into the object ball from outside the line of aim, effectively cutting across the object ball from a different angle so needs to be hit a lot less hard.
Which make the shot easier, not more difficult, as all you have to do is aim for a thicker contact point and play the shot with side and voila, it all happens just as Willie Thorne tells you it does.

The tables in my club are reclothed about every two or three years, our league runs in the winter and the snooker rooms have a couple of radiators in them that don't really kick out too much heat, and certainly don't take the moisture out of the air. When the cloths are new they have a heavy nap on them, by the time they need changing there is very little nap and the balls bounce and rattle along the bed of the tables and the cloth on the knuckles of the pockets are worn away, which is the case on one of them right now.

With the reccession on this has meant waiting even longer to get tables reclothed, I'm sure this is the case in many clubs all over the UK at the moment. I read that Canada has virtually sidestepped the recession as their banks were more astute than ours. I don't know if this is true but we in the UK are still suffering, despite the juggled stats that our leaders keep parading before us.

These are the conditons that I and many others have had to get used to playing on, not the conditions that the pros are used to with a very fast cloth, table heaters, bigger pockets and great lighting. The shots that they can play are not possible in our club, the deep screw from baulk to go back into baulk just isn't possible on a cold and wet december evening in our club.

Willie Thorne & co all learned to play in such conditions and that's why helping side became a part of their game, it was neccessary to them just as it's neccessary to us, and you when you get off your own table and out into the clubs.

:untroubled:

BTW
for all of you who don't have a fear of side and want to have a go at it, keep your eye on the contact point that you are aiming for, not the actual contact point that is needed to pot the ball, that the cue ball will eventually hit. So if you're aiming thicker, line up the shot with your eye on the thicker contact point, address the cue ball with the cue parallel to the centre line of aim, never address the centre of the cue ball and then apply side, and keep your eye on the thicker contact point at the moment of the strike and let the side work it's magic.

It will feel a bit weird as you're effectively aiming to miss, but this comes from a six time world champion, trust in it.

[guernseygooner]

address the cue ball with the cue parallel to the centre line of aim, never address the centre of the cue ball and then apply side, and keep your eye on the thicker contact point at the moment of the strike and let the side work it's magic.
It will feel a bit weird as you're effectively aiming to miss, but this comes from a six time world champion, trust in it.

Good point. The common mistake a lot of people make is to place the bridge hand in the same place as if it was a plain ball shot and then angle the cue towards the left or right.

I learnt what was quoted above. It is weird at first but on club tables the 2 most needed shots IMO you need in your range, is the black off the spot run through and screw back with side in order to get the cue ball out without whacking it.

[j6uk]

you played penny ball snooker

whats penny ball snooker?

[cyberheater]

address the cue ball with the cue parallel to the centre line of aim, never address the centre of the cue ball and then apply side, and keep your eye on the thicker contact point at the moment of the strike and let the side work it's magic.
It will feel a bit weird as you're effectively aiming to miss, but this comes from a six time world champion, trust in it.

I will remember this. I'm starting to use side now even though I'm not a 50 break player. Small steps for me.