knocking a break in with an i phone one yer head and a lump o wood worth 20 quid?

[vmax4steve]

having a longer cue will not help timing the ball and the ability to get through the white consistently, cue length is more about adjustments, after all im 6'4 and play with a 16oz 57" club cue.

Yet you yourself stepped up to a 61 inch cue with which you made your first ton, did you not.

What Terry has a problem with is dropping his shoulder before the strike on top of putting his cue arm forward of the vertical at address in order to sight better when the pressure is on. At 69 he hasn't that much time left to get a new action ingrained, he needs an immediate answer and although it will be hard to let go of his expensive MW cue he can buy a chinese cheapie 60 incher for £30 for practise with and if it works out he can get his MW extended and bollocks to the re-sale value, it's about playing is it not ?

Changing the grip yet again and playing well in practise on his own table has been done many times and with other adjustments than the grip, but something clicked with that 60 inch pool cue and I'm willing to bet it wasn't just the grip. That shoulder dropped two inches after the stroke because the cue is two inches longer and two inches is only the length of your index finger and is easy enough to get used to in ten minutes but can make a vast difference.

Looking at Robertson right now and his cue arm is slightly behind the vertical and he plays with a 59 inch cue I believe.

There's an old joke that rings true here

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back ?
A: A stick !

[j6uk]

Yet you yourself stepped up to a 61 inch cue with which you made your first ton, did you not.

i did, but it has little to do with how to time the ball

[Terry Davidson]

Terry have you always had a very quick action , with no pause? Or was it different back in the day.

When I learned to play in my little home town no one had ever heard of Joe Davis and company and the style was a front pause but not a rear pause. Until I went to Toronto I never saw a really good snooker player which in those days would have been George Chenier and Paul Thornley and a few others.

So I've never had a rear pause and although I think it would help I have tried and just can't get it.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

I didn't suggest that Tel, 62 is the length I have as I'm six two with long arms, 60 inches would suit you.
62 inches sounds a little extreme but the reality is that extra four inches over the norm is just the width of the knuckles of my hand and puts my cue arm slightly behind the vertical with 12 inches of cue over my thumb with a straight bridge arm, something that a player of five foot six can get with a normal length cue.

Sorry, I'm sticking with my 58" cue and my slightly bent bridge arm. I am also dropping back to have about 12" over the bridge. I don't need 60" as right now I have about 1" of cue out the back of my grip (with the forearm vertical).

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

i see, but have you not always played with this pecker like action? it looks ingrained. a style of play you would of tried to emulate form watching the most successful canadian player from your era thorburn. am i right? the most famous higgins was another one of many just to name a few.
also while we're on technique i didn't see you step back and step into the shot at the canadians, again this looks ingrained and reminiscent of the past. then there was the unstable bridge with dancing fingers, the finger tips moving while feathering and lifting off the bed. also with you frequently talking about the grip thing, it all adds up to you kinda wanting a technique makeover. and im wondering know this could be a achieved because i remember you going through all this with nic barrows several years ago, now i know you've said a number of times things have changed since then , but for me i don't see it.
having a longer cue will not help timing the ball and the ability to get through the white consistently, cue length is more about adjustments, after all im 6'4 and play with a 16oz 57" club cue. but that aside for now. from what ive said above i think we're really only left with what is ingrained along with some not very good habits.
i won't go into it too much here and now but i would be willing to respectfully take this up with you some other time

When you say the 'peckerlike action' I'm assuming you mean a short and fast backswing and not driving through the cueball. These are exactly the problems I've been trying to solve. I didn't use to play like that but when I quit for 10 years when I was living in the States and then came back I started to build from scratch and I got into some bad habits, which Nic Barrow pointed out but I never developed them properly as I could never find a grip that felt 'right' to me.

Also, the example I had around here there were some good players but none of them had what I would call a smooth cue action and you know how it goes, you tend to pick up the habits of the better players you play. There are only 2 better players here who even have a rear pause. Note Kirk Stevens if you want to know where the dancing fingers come from as I think that's where I got it and I can't stop that either.

It's only been a few days worth but I am seeing a longer and smoother backswing and a better drive through the cueball but will that translate to matches? Who Knows? I'll just keep working at it bit by bit and one thing at a time.

Remember, I'm not trying to get to pro caliber or even to a place where I can run a few centuries a day, all I'm trying to do here is stay or improve slightly on the level I'm at now. After all, I only have a little time left to play competitive snooker and I would enjoy it more if I had the odd match ton.

Terry


This

[Terry Davidson]

Yet you yourself stepped up to a 61 inch cue with which you made your first ton, did you not.

What Terry has a problem with is dropping his shoulder before the strike on top of putting his cue arm forward of the vertical at address in order to sight better when the pressure is on. At 69 he hasn't that much time left to get a new action ingrained, he needs an immediate answer and although it will be hard to let go of his expensive MW cue he can buy a chinese cheapie 60 incher for £30 for practise with and if it works out he can get his MW extended and bollocks to the re-sale value, it's about playing is it not ?

Changing the grip yet again and playing well in practise on his own table has been done many times and with other adjustments than the grip, but something clicked with that 60 inch pool cue and I'm willing to bet it wasn't just the grip. That shoulder dropped two inches after the stroke because the cue is two inches longer and two inches is only the length of your index finger and is easy enough to get used to in ten minutes but can make a vast difference.

Looking at Robertson right now and his cue arm is slightly behind the vertical and he plays with a 59 inch cue I believe.

There's an old joke that rings true here

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back ?
A: A stick !

vmax:

I tried to tell you before but you must have missed it so I'll say it again. The forearm being vertical will change with the shot. In reviewing my video from the Canadians when I had a hand-on-the-table shot my forearm was vertical and NOT ahead of the vertical. I suspect you are likely seeing the same thing with some of the pros.

I just don't agree with you on this forearm behind the vertical thing. It makes too much logical sense to me that the forearm should be vertical at address as that is the bottom of the pendulum and everything it sort of uphill from there. I tried it and found it didn't help me, but obviously you feel it helps you.

Although you feel that long cue is good for your game and it must be if it gives you confidence generally most players will use a 58" or a 57" cue if they are 6ft or less, and that includes most of the pros. (I believe I saw somewhere Robertson's cue is 58" with a quite small tip). I don't feel a longer cue will be of any help since I already have about 1" of cue hanging out the back of my grip hand and it wouldn't help to have 4" or 5" hanging out the back, which I would have even with the forearm behind the vertical.

Terry

[j6uk]

When you say the 'peckerlike action' I'm assuming you mean a short and fast backswing and not driving through the cueball. These are exactly the problems I've been trying to solve. I didn't use to play like that but when I quit for 10 years when I was living in the States and then came back I started to build from scratch and I got into some bad habits, which Nic Barrow pointed out but I never developed them properly as I could never find a grip that felt 'right' to me.

Also, the example I had around here there were some good players but none of them had what I would call a smooth cue action and you know how it goes, you tend to pick up the habits of the better players you play. There are only 2 better players here who even have a rear pause. Note Kirk Stevens if you want to know where the dancing fingers come from as I think that's where I got it and I can't stop that either.

It's only been a few days worth but I am seeing a longer and smoother backswing and a better drive through the cueball but will that translate to matches? Who Knows? I'll just keep working at it bit by bit and one thing at a time.

Remember, I'm not trying to get to pro caliber or even to a place where I can run a few centuries a day, all I'm trying to do here is stay or improve slightly on the level I'm at now. After all, I only have a little time left to play competitive snooker and I would enjoy it more if I had the odd match ton.

Terry

good post tel,
yes but didn't mean pecker as negative, nothing wrong with this style if you like, as long as your enjoying your game, having success and you understand the mechanics of what your doing with no tension or real lost of control. but if your struggling, riddled with upper body tension, cueing feels like a white knuckle ride and its exhausting with every shot feeling like a pint of blood, we've a problem.
and this will come out in other areas like, not really wanting to play/practice because in your mind you know what awaits you as soon as your hand hits the cloth. this also could effect someone personally like if you've put a lot of time and effort into something and your not getting back what you expect from it your likely to be a bit moody about things generally
the good news is i believe there is a flip side so stay positive

[Terry Davidson]

good post tel,
yes but didn't mean pecker as negative, nothing wrong with this style if you like, as long as your enjoying your game, having success and you understand the mechanics of what your doing with no tension or real lost of control. but if your struggling, riddled with upper body tension, cueing feels like a white knuckle ride and its exhausting with every shot feeling like a pint of blood, we've a problem.
and this will come out in other areas like, not really wanting to play/practice because in your mind you know what awaits you as soon as your hand hits the cloth. this also could effect someone personally like if you've put a lot of time and effort into something and your not getting back what you expect from it your likely to be a bit moody about things generally
the good news is i believe there is a flip side so stay positive

I actually enjoy going down and practicing for about 3hrs every morning. I don't believe I'm tense these days at all although up until recently I did have a problem with my upper body rising on the backswing and I had to work hard to stop that but I've noticed something is happening there as my cue doesn't stay on my chest sometimes during the backswing. I'm working on keeping the elbow up as far as I can comfortably and trying to maintain that through the delivery unless it's a high power shot then I drop the elbow slight on the longer backswing to keep the cue on the same plane and again drop it at the end of the delivery for the same reason.

I realize the 'pecker' thing is not a negative as I first heard of that term from Del Hill when he said there are 2 types of players although he was talking about dropping the elbow on the delivery on the other type of player. I agree with vmax on this one as my elbow is not directly over the cue but hangs outside the body maybe 2" and dropping the elbow on delivery means I won't cue straight until I get the elbow realigned correctly. To do this I have to widen my stance by moving the left leg out about 4" and also putting a more severe wrist cock into the grip and also bending the left leg a bit more to swing the hips more to the left. (I've noticed my grip thumb hitting my trousers on a longer backswing so I know I'm not swinging the hips enough.

As I think it might help a number of players on here, I will list what I see as my deficiencies and see what you can come up with to correct them. They are:

1. Backswing too fast and too short.
2. No rear pause.
3. Not consistent in pre-shot routine when approaching the shot (I didn't realize this one).
4. Grip too tight? (not sure on this one either). I do 'clutch' the cue sometimes and decelerate through the cueball.
5. Delivery too abrupt with power shots (and I believe I tighten the grip too early on these).
6. Poor acceleration through and beyond the cueball. (My follow-through is usually 4.5" or so without dropping the elbow).
7. I tend to rise off the shot too early rather than staying down until the ball pots or hits a cushion.

My preferences would be to find some way to develop a defined rear pause (everyone has to stop the cue and change directions but mine is way too abrupt).

Keep the elbow up (similar to Trump) on delivery, even on power shots.

What do you see as the correct grip?

How can I develop smoother acceleration?

The rest I should be able to resolve myself. If you don't want to answer this on the public forum either PM me or else email to 'terrydavidson45(at)gmail(dot)com' as I would like to see what you think.

Also, remember I'm being picked apart based on the results of one frame with Demos in the round robin which was my first match while I actually played 40 frames in the Canadians so there must have been some frames where I played well but weren't streamed, or at least the results say that to me.

Thanks,
Terry

[j6uk]

i don't mind getting into it on this thread if you don't. the pause, so called grip, and delivery, i'll try and do something here in the kitchen video wise when my misses gets back. shes got the latest phone and mine is ten yeas old plus im looking after the little one..
but you know its not gonna be complicated

[Terry Davidson]

i don't mind getting into it on this thread if you don't. the pause, so called grip, and delivery, i'll try and do something here in the kitchen video wise when my misses gets back. shes got the latest phone and mine is ten yeas old plus im looking after the little one..
but you know its not gonna be complicated

OK by me

Thanks

[itsnoteasy]

I watched the Canadian Champs, you played in, and from my point of view I thought quite a few of the players had what I would call a pool stroke rather than a snooker action, from my very limited viewing of American pool it seems to be front pause and no rear pause and quick through, do they mainly have an American pool background?
I think Vmax, J6,and you are all trying to get you to do the same thing, from different angles, and that seems to be to get better timing, it's a tough one, and I am really looking forward to what gets posted up, I have a feeling we are all going to learn something here.
I will probably be wrong here but I don't think being very very slightly behind vertical is that bad an idea, it could make sure peak acceleration is beyond where the contact point is helping to make sure you get right through the white, and you are accelerating beyond it. Maybe if you cued right up to the cue ball it wouldn't matter but if you are someone who cues say an inch to an inch and a half from the cue ball, it could make all the difference to the timing , just a thought and as I say it might not be right.

[Terry Davidson]

I watched the Canadian Champs, you played in, and from my point of view I thought quite a few of the players had what I would call a pool stroke rather than a snooker action, from my very limited viewing of American pool it seems to be front pause and no rear pause and quick through, do they mainly have an American pool background?
I think Vmax, J6,and you are all trying to get you to do the same thing, from different angles, and that seems to be to get better timing, it's a tough one, and I am really looking forward to what gets posted up, I have a feeling we are all going to learn something here.
I will probably be wrong here but I don't think being very very slightly behind vertical is that bad an idea, it could make sure peak acceleration is beyond where the contact point is helping to make sure you get right through the white, and you are accelerating beyond it. Maybe if you cued right up to the cue ball it wouldn't matter but if you are someone who cues say an inch to an inch and a half from the cue ball, it could make all the difference to the timing , just a thought and as I say it might not be right.

Not really a pool background but a lot of the kids when they first go into a club will play on the 9-ball tables as the snooker tables are daunting to them. Besides which there are very few good Canadian snooker players who have a snooker stroke as defined in the rest of the world. When I started sneaking into our local pool room at 14 (the age limit was 16) I wasn't allowed to play on the snooker tables, only the more experience and older players could get on them unless it was quiet and then I could only get on by either challenging a better player to a match with a side bet I couldn't afford or else hope the manager would allow us on the table until the better players came in.

The other bad thing as far as snooker goes is the big gambling game was golf, where you just putt balls around and try and make all 6 holes while the other players are trying to block you. Every shot is a gentle roll which does nothing for a snooker stroke. I was taught by my older cousin who was only a pool player and that's what I learned. Then I joined the Navy at 17yrs and didn't play at all for another 15 years or so and when I started I lost a lot of money to better players, but eventually started to improve. Then Kenny Shea (best player around) loaned me his copy of Joe Davis' book and I started to use that to learn with and started getting some solo practice in when it wasn't busy.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

I bet losing money soon sharpened your game up, you would have to have a fast learning curve just to survive.
Was Kenny Shea a pro Terry for some strange reason I feel I recognise that name.

[Terry Davidson]

I bet losing money soon sharpened your game up, you would have to have a fast learning curve just to survive.
Was Kenny Shea a pro Terry for some strange reason I feel I recognise that name.

I'll tell you sometimes I didn't have any lunch money to spend and starved.

Kenny Shea is from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia and he was a really good player. Noel Miller-Cheevers brought him over to Britain where he played Ray Reardon and John Spencer and the way Kenny tells it he was asked to turn pro right around the time Cliff did. However, Kenny was a fireman in Dartmouth on good wages and a great pension plan and he decided not to risk that and I can't blame him. He's about 78 or so now but he still plays a pretty fair game. When he was younger he had 11 147s (I think it was 11) in tournaments although Cliff was the better player and also George Chenier.

When Kenny was younger a new snooker club opened in Dartmouth and they invited George to come and do an exhibition with Kenny for the opening. Well, George showed up but he had a stroke a little while before and lost his left side so he had to maneuver his bridge hand using his right hand and he still beat Kenny like he wasn't there. I watched that one and I was amazed this Chenier fellow could play so well even with his left side paralyzed...just amazing.

Chenier used to give Joe Davis a go when they were both playing well, although Joe wouldn't play anybody off levels and insisted on giving a start although George didn't want one and neither did a lot of Joe's other opponents. But if Joe got beat (by both Chenier and Fred Davis) he always said 'yeah, but I gave them a start'!!!

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

Well I won't know him, I wonder why that name stuck in my head. George Chenier sounds one hell of a player.