Sighting vs aiming

[rimmer10]

who cares! listen, if your putting the time in into improving then you'll get to understand where and when you time the shot, but if your just in it for the fun and banter then wgaf! just enjoy it and take the good with the bad

Fair enough mate, I get your point. All I'm doing is trying to learn the game and understand as much as I can.

[Leo]

The internet is an amazing place for information... But it makes us very lazy go out and find a club where there are good players, watch and learn, befriend them pick some balls out buy some drinks, we all mean well on here but seeing it in the flesh is far better. And as j6 says learn to enjoy it and have fun first because trust me as you get better it gets harder

Completely agree. Some of the stuff the coaches write on here is way out with reality and mostly looks like none of it makes any sense especially as every player is different. Anyone starting out enjoy the game watch other players and your game will only improve.

[Terry Davidson]

This might sound like a stupid question j6, but is there any way of knowing exactly when you have dropped the elbow, I mean how do you know if you have dropped the elbow to early?

I know you asked j6uk this but he just said 'who cares'? I use video analysis where I can watch frame-by-frame and I stop it at the strike and can easily check if the elbow has already dropped. If you can upload your video to your computer then get Kinovea which is freeware and you can determine when your elbow is dropping.

I don't agree with the statement that it doesn't matter when the elbow drops as it does lead to inconsistency if it drops before the strike because that means the player is using his shoulder muscle to deliver the cue and unlike the muscles in the upper forearm the shoulder muscle is not good at fine motor skills.

Terry

[mythman69]

get Kinovea which is freeware

Thanks for the tip Terry.

I downloaded the free software and have been slowing down and studying various pro players to watch and learn.

I started with a video of Stephen Lee giving a coaching lesson.

[j6uk]

I know you asked j6uk this but he just said 'who cares'? I use video analysis where I can watch frame-by-frame and I stop it at the strike and can easily check if the elbow has already dropped. If you can upload your video to your computer then get Kinovea which is freeware and you can determine when your elbow is dropping.

I don't agree with the statement that it doesn't matter when the elbow drops as it does lead to inconsistency if it drops before the strike because that means the player is using his shoulder muscle to deliver the cue and unlike the muscles in the upper forearm the shoulder muscle is not good at fine motor skills.

Terry

again who cares?! well old tel does apparently, but for whos benefit and/or ego rub? right so you wanna go video frame by frame then when you see yourself some how you'll correct it and its ll gonna be hunkydory yeah?.
before i'd go down that road i'd wanna know what your goals are, how many hours your putting i a week and, see you in action

[rimmer10]

again who cares?! well old tel does apparently, but for whos benefit and/or ego rub? right so you wanna go video frame by frame then when you see yourself some how you'll correct it and its ll gonna be hunkydory yeah?.
before i'd go down that road i'd wanna know what your goals are, how many hours your putting i a week and, see you in action

You ask who cares and to be honest, I do. Besides the fact that this is actually really sound advice, Terry has given me a lot of his time and patiently tried to explain some very complex subjects in ways that someone like me has half a chance to understand and I really appreciate that. I have got a tremendous amount of respect for you j6 and understand your frustration in trying to explain something in words that really has to be felt. I know you haven't asked for my life story but because you wanna know what my goals are I think you need to know a bit about my background. I didn't even know snooker existed until I came to England back in '94. I'm 47 years old and from Vienna, Austria and never even played pool regularly apart from when I lived in Oklahoma and then I only played American Pool once a week with my work mates on a Friday. You can imagine how my mouth dropped when I saw a full size snooker table for the first time. I started watching snooker more and more on TV and totally fell in love with it. And this is basically it in a nutshell, it's pure love for everything snooker and wanting to learn and understand as much as possible is just a consequence of it. The one and only goal I have - if you can call it that - is that I want to enjoy my once a week outing even more than I do already. And that would involve finding a way as to not miss those easy pots even my 2 year old grandson would get, blindfolded. Which led to my original question which started this thread (and then went off on one a bit). I hope you now understand a bit better where I'm coming from and I am really looking forward to more of your advice in the future (no matter how stupid the questions may be, please be patient with me)
Thanks Richard

[j6uk]

well this was a nice little read, thanks for sharing. if tel wants to put his time and effort into the finer tecnhcal detailes with a once a week social player then more power to him but its not something i'd entertain. but hay if you like bashing the keys more than you like potting balls, thats cool, theres loads of those on here for you to chatt with.. \
we're all in it for the love ay
play well rim

You ask who cares and to be honest, I do. Besides the fact that this is actually really sound advice, Terry has given me a lot of his time and patiently tried to explain some very complex subjects in ways that someone like me has half a chance to understand and I really appreciate that. I have got a tremendous amount of respect for you j6 and understand your frustration in trying to explain something in words that really has to be felt. I know you haven't asked for my life story but because you wanna know what my goals are I think you need to know a bit about my background. I didn't even know snooker existed until I came to England back in '94. I'm 47 years old and from Vienna, Austria and never even played pool regularly apart from when I lived in Oklahoma and then I only played American Pool once a week with my work mates on a Friday. You can imagine how my mouth dropped when I saw a full size snooker table for the first time. I started watching snooker more and more on TV and totally fell in love with it. And this is basically it in a nutshell, it's pure love for everything snooker and wanting to learn and understand as much as possible is just a consequence of it. The one and only goal I have - if you can call it that - is that I want to enjoy my once a week outing even more than I do already. And that would involve finding a way as to not miss those easy pots even my 2 year old grandson would get, blindfolded. Which led to my original question which started this thread (and then went off on one a bit). I hope you now understand a bit better where I'm coming from and I am really looking forward to more of your advice in the future (no matter how stupid the questions may be, please be patient with me)
Thanks Richard

[rimmer10]

well this was a nice little read, thanks for sharing. if tel wants to put his time and effort into the finer tecnhcal detailes with a once a week social player then more power to him but its not something i'd entertain. but hay if you like bashing the keys more than you like potting balls, thats cool, theres loads of those on here for you to chatt with.. \
we're all in it for the love ay
play well rim

I don't know what your problem is j6 and I don't care. I'd appreciate if you'd stay of this thread

[j6uk]

no problem here rim and i'm not sure why your so upset by my input. i only try to tell it as i see it

I don't know what your problem is j6 and I don't care. I'd appreciate if you'd stay of this thread

[ace man]

- is that I want to enjoy my once a week outing even more than I do already. And that would involve finding a way as to not miss those easy pots even my 2 year old grandson would get, blindfolded.

First, there are no easy pots on a snooker table. None at all.
Second, what you are asking for is 100% impossible. With once a week outing no player in the world could improve. In fact, you could get a lot worse if you try changing something playing that little and not practising at all. Following advice from a coach requires serious dedication. You may think that you could not be worse, but you could, believe me.
Snooker is a sport. Treat it as such, and then you may see *very small* progress over a very long period of time.
I know this is not what you want to hear/read, but I've had other guys like you asking me why are they not able to score a break of Xyz points, why are they missing this and that...etc. For some reason, most players don't realize just how tough this game is...

[Leo]

First, there are no easy pots on a snooker table. None at all.
Second, what you are asking for is 100% impossible. With once a week outing no player in the world could improve. In fact, you could get a lot worse if you try changing something playing that little and not practising at all. Following advice from a coach requires serious dedication. You may think that you could not be worse, but you could, believe me.
Snooker is a sport. Treat it as such, and then you may see *very small* progress over a very long period of time.
I know this is not what you want to hear/read, but I've had other guys like you asking me why are they not able to score a break of Xyz points, why are they missing this and that...etc. For some reason, most players don't realize just how tough this game is...

Good post. It's pretty much like a plastering coach on a DIY forum trying to instruct someone how to plaster it just don't work and is no different to a decent snooker player trying to instruct an average player how to pot balls correctly.

[mg222]

again who cares?! well old tel does apparently, but for whos benefit and/or ego rub? right so you wanna go video frame by frame then when you see yourself some how you'll correct it and its ll gonna be hunkydory yeah?.
before i'd go down that road i'd wanna know what your goals are, how many hours your putting i a week and, see you in action

Absolutely Correct. Right on the money. Cut the old timer some slack, mate....... writing a lot of long, very long redundant "words" gives his life a meaning. This is his medication. Unfortunately, a lot of innocent players trying to improve end up confused. Not good for snooker. :snooker:

I don't know what your problem is j6 and I don't care. I'd appreciate if you'd stay of this thread

Sorry mate, I dont think you / we should be asking anyone to "stay out of this thread"! The thread does not belong to you . There are hundreds of other people reading these posts. Posters like Leo and j6 are doing a good service by pointing out the correct way 'forward' for a player.

[Terry Davidson]

Absolutely Correct. Right on the money. Cut the old timer some slack, mate....... writing a lot of long, very long redundant "words" gives his life a meaning. This is his medication. Unfortunately, a lot of innocent players trying to improve end up confused. Not good for snooker. :snooker:
Sorry mate, I dont think you / we should be asking anyone to "stay out of this thread"! The thread does not belong to you . There are hundreds of other people reading these posts. Posters like Leo and j6 are doing a good service by pointing out the correct way 'forward' for a player.

I don't know where you 2 get the idea that me trying to help people who ask for information is somehow related to my ego. I think a more valid point is you and j6uk need to vent at myself and others to pump up your own egos. All you (mg222) post is a lot of negative things about snooker coaching to try and get your anti-coaching views in public and that is really about your own ego isn't it.

As for Jason, I think there's been enough said here on his own ego-building posts. He has even broken a commitment to me in the past (over a training device he promised to send) and I figure you can't take him at his word

Terry

[Byrom]

Let me start of with saying that I am only a recreational player who plays once a week and had a high break of 24 some years ago. I am left eye dominant which I determined after doing all the usual tests like pointing at the chalk and forming a triangle with my fingers to look through and all the rest of it. Problem is after trying to do the whole pre shot routine in a text book way - standing back, walking into the shot and MAKING SURE my head drops down dead straight- the shot looks different once I am down and aiming. So I've done a little test this morning on my dining table which has a big mirror behind it on the back wall. I laid out a cue so it lines up with its mirror image and then stood upright behind it aligning myself like you would when you are sighting a shot. Once I was satisfied I was straight behind the cue I held another cue vertically behind the cue laid out on the table which is easy to do checking in the mirror and then checked where my eye alignment was in relation to the cue I held vertical. To my amazement I discovered that my eyes were equal distance i.e. my nose was in perfect alignment with the shot. Could this be the reason I miss all them easy shots that even a player of my standard should get? Also I am more confident on long pots then when I am in amongst the balls which maybe could be explained that the parallax error is less profound over a longer distance. So what should I believe, my alignment when sighting or when I'm aiming?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I will try and answer your question - First I must point out that only playing once a week will not improve you that much if at all - and I must say that research into your game can be pointless if you don't put in any practical effort to implementing or trying out any improvement.

Potting in snooker is simple just a game of lines - so draw a line through the object ball to the part of the pocket you wish to send it and make the meat (middle) front face of the white hits the meat (middle) Back of the object ball and it goes in (note there is a wee bit more to it if you add in pace and side and distance and stuff but that is for a different thread lol) - some players might be different but I find the line standing up behind the white and keep my eyes focused on this point on the object ball I need to hit through the object ball as I get down into position - I only fine tune aim sometimes when down (a bad habit I think and I do it myself because I'm lazy and don't get back up as I have a dodgy back and cant be bothered -I think it a bad habit because adjustment at this point means I did not get the shot set right before getting down in my mind - sometimes you get away with fine aiming and yet too much adjustment when down can alter the shot I worked out before getting down if that makes sense?) - At my best all my aiming and imagining the shot I need and the strength - position has been worked out before getting down - so when down I just concentrate on keeping still - timing the shot right and driving through the ball straight and smooth - everything is just natural and evenly paced when playing my best at this point. Judging potting angles and how to get down on the line correctly aim on the white to deliver the correct shot and position and deliver the cue consistently takes practice to become second nature - refining your own technique takes much practice - and there are a thousand bits and bats to learn regarding this and other things positioning and table mapping and mindset and stuff as you progress.

No-one has perfect technique they have their own ways of playing - they discover their own way by devoting mind numbing hours to homing their technique - coaches can give advice but snooker is not something you can learn from any coach any book or a video or from words on a forum on its own - it takes many hours of practice on a table in combination with the other bits to improve.

My advice therefore is to book some solo practice time try out some basic routines and keep trying them out - set yourself targets and try and beat them - learn off the players around you when you play them and don't be hard on yourself - play and enjoy it - and in response to your question if you are a once a week player and just want to see an instant improvement in regards your problem just try this following advice - it might help to pace yourself evenly - give those easy shots as much concentration and respect as you would any other.
I actually give them more thought as I see these easy shots as more of an opportunity to plan ahead and map out the position and table better.

Booking a proper coach in person might help define your technical faults properly and he would no doubt give you some solid basics to adhere to but again you need to devote time to practice and implement any changes to your own comfortable technique.

Hope this helps.

[j6uk]

I don't know where you 2 get the idea that me trying to help people who ask for information is somehow related to my ego. I think a more valid point is you and j6uk need to vent at myself and others to pump up your own egos. All you (mg222) post is a lot of negative things about snooker coaching to try and get your anti-coaching views in public and that is really about your own ego isn't it.

As for Jason, I think there's been enough said here on his own ego-building posts. He has even broken a commitment to me in the past (over a training device he promised to send) and I figure you can't take him at his word

Terry

yeah its all about me tel..
that training devise your now no about was simply a refined version of the matchbox and when i said i'd post one to you to help you with your cueing you replied with a clip pm saying you had a few of these already at differing specs but i could send it if i wanted to. then some time when by and as i had developed my little creation, i pm'd you 'with a sorry' to say that i couldn't send you what i proposed because i'd developed it into a proper training devise and had other planes for it, you replied with a understanding okay.
don't worry tel im 44 and my girl tells me off for forgetting stuff and mixing thing up