Mind At Large and the reducing valve

[Leo]

just me but can't make head or tail of any of the previous posts

[ace man]

I feel there are many, many snooker players who have the absolute will to succeed at the game but just cannot for the life of them find the concentration levels needed, who cannot shut out everything around them and focus on just that object ball.
...
It should be a simple thing should it not, to be able to look at the object ball and pick out the line of aim and keep your eyes on it on the stroke, but it isn't.
...
There are many on this forum who suffer from this malaise, I am one of them. No matter how hard I try, I cannot through force of will focus on that object ball at all times. Maybe it's a natural thing and there's nothing I can do about it, and let's be honest here, no amount of coaching about technique can make up for this deficit in ones mental make up.

While I agree that each person has his own mental/physical limits, I also think that one should never have a defeatist attitude.... And on top of that, to even reach personal limits in snooker requires life solely dedicated to it. Club players are never going to get close to their limits whatever they may be.
I am not buying that pro players or very high level amateurs have some mind boggling innate mental abilities which separate them from regular club level players. They are normal humans like us, it is just that they have worked very hard on their games for most of their lives...incredibly hard.
As for that focus on the object ball...I think Vmax you specifically can focus on it probably better than anyone in the world. I don't know of any other player who thinks about it so much.

[Terry Davidson]

Good post

Terry

While I agree that each person has his own mental/physical limits, I also think that one should never have a defeatist attitude.... And on top of that, to even reach personal limits in snooker requires life solely dedicated to it. Club players are never going to get close to their limits whatever they may be.
I am not buying that pro players or very high level amateurs have some mind boggling innate mental abilities which separate them from regular club level players. They are normal humans like us, it is just that they have worked very hard on their games for most of their lives...incredibly hard.
As for that focus on the object ball...I think Vmax you specifically can focus on it probably better than anyone in the world. I don't know of any other player who thinks about it so much.

[Ramon]

While I agree that each person has his own mental/physical limits, I also think that one should never have a defeatist attitude.... And on top of that, to even reach personal limits in snooker requires life solely dedicated to it. Club players are never going to get close to their limits whatever they may be.
I am not buying that pro players or very high level amateurs have some mind boggling innate mental abilities which separate them from regular club level players. They are normal humans like us, it is just that they have worked very hard on their games for most of their lives...incredibly hard.
As for that focus on the object ball...I think Vmax you specifically can focus on it probably better than anyone in the world. I don't know of any other player who thinks about it so much.

I hope you do'nt mind me asking this. so, what you re saying is: the pro players ( especially when their opponent has the same level as them ),, have no problems with their mental abilities?

[vmax4steve]

While I agree that each person has his own mental/physical limits, I also think that one should never have a defeatist attitude.... And on top of that, to even reach personal limits in snooker requires life solely dedicated to it. Club players are never going to get close to their limits whatever they may be.
I am not buying that pro players or very high level amateurs have some mind boggling innate mental abilities which separate them from regular club level players. They are normal humans like us, it is just that they have worked very hard on their games for most of their lives...incredibly hard.
As for that focus on the object ball...I think Vmax you specifically can focus on it probably better than anyone in the world. I don't know of any other player who thinks about it so much.

Not mind boggling to be sure, but they do have something that separates them from the rest of us, and from each other as well.

As for my obssesion with the object ball, well surely that's what the game is all about in the end, to make sure that your hand follows your eye in order to keep the cue on the line of aim. And if you can do that better than the rest due to some innate abiltity to shut out everything else, that is down to the way your own mind works, and is nothing to do with a learned mental toughness, then what hope for those of us who flit in and out of this zone for no apparent reason.

Terry says that concentration can be learned, but from my own personal perspective it can't. It isn't just snooker either, I'm like this with everything in my life, it's like I have a peripheral mind that's aware of everything going on around me all the time, and the unwanted white noise of life is only shut out fleetingly.

I agree with golfperson that relaxation due to confidence in your technique is probably key, but why can I only find this for five minutes at a time, despite having good technique and the required confidence in it, (after all I can play all the shots and make good breaks) while others fall into it seemingly at will for far longer.

This is why I started this thread, sod all to do with taking psychoactive drugs to enhance ones game, but reading about Huxley's experience and the reducing valve theory got me thinking that maybe there's nothing I can do about it; and this could be a good thing in the long run, it might just help to relieve my frustration of knowing it's going to happen, and help me relax for longer periods.

And if this works for me then it could also work for others.

[ace man]

I hope you do'nt mind me asking this. so, what you re saying is: the pro players ( especially when their opponent has the same level as them ),, have no problems with their mental abilities?

Don't know about that. I was referring to how some people believe that pro players have superior mental/physical skills from birth compared to regular club players. Some call it natural talent or 'born to play snooker'...whatever. Comparison is flawed anyway, because a pro player and casual club player have lives which have gone in totally different directions...from early youth onwards.

[ace man]

...
I agree with golfperson that relaxation due to confidence in your technique is probably key, but why can I only find this for five minutes at a time, despite having good technique and the required confidence in it, (after all I can play all the shots and make good breaks) while others fall into it seemingly at will for far longer.
...

Maybe your expectations are a little too high.
Good technique compared to whom? I also thought I had some technique, until the first time I watched pro snooker players play in person, not on TV. Very different. Then I realized what good timing, delivery and clean striking is supposed to look like. Bloody hell those guys are so good!!! It is a different universe.
Realistically I can only replicate *some* aspects of their technique, though not very consistently. Still, I'm happy with that. Even those little parts were difficult for me to sort of replicate. As a club/hobby player, I can improve , but not to such an extent to be able to produce single visit frame wins very often. That is not possible. The game is too demanding, I started with it far too late and have never really been without a day job.

[tedisbill]

Vmax:

How often do you play snooker? You'll find it will require enormous amounts of dedication to improve from where you're at currently.

I just don't agree with the fact that you're just stuck at your current level and that's it and there's nothing you can do about it. Unless of course, you come back and tell me you practice for 5 hours a day, 5 times a week.

[alabadi]

well surely that's what the game is all about in the end, to make sure that your hand follows your eye in order to keep the cue on the line of aim.

maybe this is off topic slighty or not, but Steve if it is true that the hand follows the eye, what would happen if you can fix your eyes on the contact point however you hand/cue is not on the same line ( this could be due to getting down wrong, or a fault with bridgehand placement)

wouldn't then the hand come across the line off aim putting unwanted side on the cueball because is trying to get on line that the eyes see.

just a thought

[golferson123]

Mind At Large and the reducing valve

don't believe there is any correlation between the hand/ob. think of a golf swing the hands orbit in a different plane to the club head I really think we are over doing what's req.

[itsnoteasy]

maybe this is off topic slighty or not, but Steve if it is true that the hand follows the eye, what would happen if you can fix your eyes on the contact point however you hand/cue is not on the same line ( this could be due to getting down wrong, or a fault with bridgehand placement)

wouldn't then the hand come across the line off aim putting unwanted side on the cueball because is trying to get on line that the eyes see.

just a thought

This is always my argument (not the right phrase but it will do) with it Alabadi, is it because your offline a wee bit or have a wee bit of movement, that makes a conflict with brain ,body and eyes, and therefore cause the eyes to wander about trying to correct things. Or is it the other way round your eyes are wandering so your cue goes slightly offline, or is it even a mixture of both. I have decided I will never know so just don't bother with it now and just try my best, seems to be working just now.

[Ramon]

Don't know about that. I was referring to how some people believe that pro players have superior mental/physical skills from birth compared to regular club players. Some call it natural talent or 'born to play snooker'...whatever. Comparison is flawed anyway, because a pro player and casual club player have lives which have gone in totally different directions...from early youth onwards.

A pro player can play much better than a club player. Not only because of more exercise and better technique, but also because he knows deep into his thought 100 percent that he plays against a club player and he's better. Therefore, this is not a proper comparison.
You can'nt talk about mental ability of a pro player , if he plays against a club player.
That can only be done if he plays against someone of his own level
These players (especially top 64 of the world), have no problems with their technique. they do not need practice 8 hours a day to become mentally stronger. They do this for over 20 years each day !!!!!Why a pro player wins more than 40 ranking tournaments and other pro player has never won a ranking tournament?
Believe me, has nothing to do with practice OR HARD WORK AS U SAY.(because they all do it 8 hours a day).
What do you wanna say???? that during Steve Davis vs Dennis Taylor-1985 World Championship ,,, steve Davis missed the black more then 5 time in that final just because he had'nt worked hard enough??? Because he didn't have enough practice???? Or was it because of pressure.
When you talk about top 64 in the world. you are talking about 10 percent difference in technique and 90 percent difference in mental ability.
In this case I can tell you: Yes, there are players those are from their nature mentally strong and can perform much better under pressure.
That's whay a pro wins more than 40 ranking tournaments in his career and other one nothing at all,
BTW, I'm agree with you, through hard work you get more confidence. So, that can help,Only to a certain limit.

[ace man]

A pro player can play much better than a club player. Not only because of more exercise and better technique, but also because he knows deep into his thought 100 percent that he plays against a club player and he's better. Therefore, this is not a proper comparison.
You can'nt talk about mental ability of a pro player , if he plays against a club player.
That can only be done if he plays against someone of his own level
These players (especially top 64 of the world), have no problems with their technique. they do not need practice 8 hours a day to become mentally stronger. They do this for over 20 years each day !!!!!Why a pro player wins more than 40 ranking tournaments and other pro player has never won a ranking tournament?
Believe me, has nothing to do with practice OR HARD WORK AS U SAY.(because they all do it 8 hours a day).
What do you wanna say???? that during Steve Davis vs Dennis Taylor-1985 World Championship ,,, steve Davis missed the black more then 5 time in that final just because he had'nt worked hard enough??? Because he didn't have enough practice???? Or was it because of pressure.
When you talk about top 64 in the world. you are talking about 10 percent difference in technique and 90 percent difference in mental ability.
In this case I can tell you: Yes, there are players those are from their nature mentally strong and can perform much better under pressure.
That's whay a pro wins more than 40 ranking tournaments in his career and other one nothing at all,
BTW, I'm agree with you, through hard work you get more confidence. So, that can help,Only to a certain limit.

Ramon, what you wrote here is correct, but I was really referring to regular players, not really to pro players and tiny differences between them which determine those among them who can be champions. Of course champions are extremely rare breed in any sport. That is understood.
What I was talking about is regular aspiring players who not only do not practise nearly enough, but also convince themselves that they cannot move forward in the game because of some mental or physical inadequacy, when there is none really.

[Ramon]

Ramon, what you wrote here is correct, but I was really referring to regular players, not really to pro players and tiny differences between them which determine those among them who can be champions. Of course champions are extremely rare breed in any sport. That is understood.
What I was talking about is regular aspiring players who not only do not practise nearly enough, but also convince themselves that they cannot move forward in the game because of some mental or physical inadequacy, when there is none really.

100 percent agree. With only talent or mental ability, you can't be a top athlete or a top snooker player. you need to do that in combination with hard work.
Thanks for the clarification !!!!

[vmax4steve]

maybe this is off topic slighty or not, but Steve if it is true that the hand follows the eye, what would happen if you can fix your eyes on the contact point however you hand/cue is not on the same line ( this could be due to getting down wrong, or a fault with bridgehand placement)

wouldn't then the hand come across the line off aim putting unwanted side on the cueball because is trying to get on line that the eyes see.

just a thought

Object ball focus is all about getting the cue on the line of aim to start with and keeping it there, so before you get down on the shot you have to find that contact point first, as well as on the stroke.
It's a bona fide fact that the hand follows the eye which is why one without the other doesn't work for the reason quoted.