My long pot video - help please

[itsnoteasy]

Yes, ROS does drop his elbow on a lot of pots, especially with power however you should also note Judd Trump hardly ever drops his elbow. As you said, dropping the elbow before the strike is a serious problem for those who want to improve but unfortunately there are a lot of players who do that and if they are trying to improve they have to stop delivering with the shoulder muscle and use purely the elbow as a hinge.

The elbow will drop naturally well after the strike when a player learns to keep the cue on the same plane throughout the stroke and that occurs both during a longer backswing and also on every delivery where a little power is used.

Terry

I think there is too much talk of elbows dropping etc, as far as I know there is no such thing as a forced or very deliberate drop, I would go with what Terry says, and it's just a natural result of letting the cue come through to the end position, for me it allows a nice long follow through which can prevent deceleration, just my feel on it.

[rimmer10]

Rimmer i know you mean well but i fail to see why you can state that elbow drop is fatal do you possess the knowledge to state this or are you repeating others! Elbow drop occures after contact and enables followthrough i agree that if it happens before then it becomes a shove and is incorrect. I dont usually refer to other players but please observe ronnies followthrough and tell me does he drop his elbow after contact?

You're right golferson, what I meant was from what I can gather it's not a good idea to introduce an elbow drop if it's not in your natural game. That's why I said I'm sure the good players on here will correct me if I'm wrong, and I stand corrected.

[thunder66]

To report on my progress today, I did an hour or so long pot practice, saw some improvement but not major, I've been mainly working on two things today:

1. Try to do longer backswing, for the initial pull back I try to do a full length, almost to the thumb, and then pull back half of it on the next one, and then 1/4 of it, then stop on white, then the final draw, with the amount of pull necessary for the shot. I think the most difficult part for me is to pull the full length on the initial backswing, looking at my video, I see I've been always doing half a full length.

Is this the correct way to go?

2. Try to keep the cue on the same plane, did the baulkline exercise Terry mentioned, at the end of it I think I can mentally try to remind myself to keep the elbow high, and then the cue pressure against the chest and chin is constant throughout the feathering and delivery, I think in theory this would mean the cue is on the same plane right? (provided body stays stationary, yes I need to get rid of that head movement).

As for opening my grip up more, I realized I should flex my back three fingers, and let them "brush" the cue when pull back, or another way to describe it, it's somewhat like having the fingers rotate around the cue. What I did wrong before was I was actively letting them go of the cue and so come complete off the butt, and therefore on delivery there's much movement trying to come back to the butt, and even tense up and grab the cue, that's why I was so afraid of opening up.

By the way, I was able to clear all 15 reds on my third attempt today, the long pot was not improving much but my short game improved alot after all those delivery exercise. And the most helpful change was the center body alignment, I can now truly feel what it's like to see the line and walk in on the line! Whereas before I was attempting hard on every shot to keep myself on the line! Also I had trouble seeing the BOB and always doubted the BOB I was reading, but now it's almost instant, the moment I feel where BOB is, the line of aim comes naturally, and I then can quickly align my body on the line, and walk in on that line, don't even have to worry anymore where BOB is or whether the same cover is maintained when I get down, was struggling so much with all these before.

Thank you Terry for the wonderful tip!

To answer a couple of your questions. The 4th leg means when you shoot the spots (provided the table is fairly level) the cueball should be within one ball's width from the brown spot on the 4th length of the table. Just 2 lengths doesn't require any power and will not show up any flaws in your striking.

Cue on chest is not the correct mental picture as it should be 'chest on cue' which means to force the chest down to the cue and NOT to pull the cue into the chest once you are down. To keep the cue on the same plane the curl of the fingers does exert a very small amount of upward pressure and the trick is to keep the upper body very still and in fact do not breathe in or out while your cue is moving, i.e. - from the address position, through the feathers, backswing and delivery.

It is difficult to keep the cue on the same plane (meaning the butt does not rise and fall at all, but I notice yours does a bit and that is because your grip is still a bit tight and at the end of a longer backswing the elbow has to drop a bit at the very end of the backswing. At the start of the delivery the elbow returns to it's highest point quickly and then the elbow may drop again at the end of the delivery although there really is not reason it has to but some players will do this naturally as it's a certain way to properly complete the delivery and to also keep the cue on the same plane.

It's also very important to stop everything at the end of the delivery and stay still for 1-2 seconds and observe the object ball with only your eyes (do not move the body at all).

I also noticed what someone said above and that is you head is rising on the final backswing. Work on cueing slowly along the baulkline with no balls and concentrate on not dropping the elbow at all at the end of the delivery (it will still have to drop a bit to keep the cue on the same plane though). With this exercise move the cue very slowly and do a full long backswing and then a full delivery and you can even watch the tip of the cue during this to ensure it dows not go down on the backswing (meaning the butt has risen). If the tip does go down it will mean you are 'scooping' the cue when you deliver and there is no guarantee you will hit the cueball at the height you intended (so on a deep screw shot you will hit the cueball a little higher than you intended and on a shot with top spin you may even mis-cue).

Banging the back of the grip hand into the chest is not really a bad thing as it means you accelerated through and BEYOND the cueball which is something you should always try to achieve, even on low power shots. Just don't do it so forcefully that you bruise your chest, but keep the acceleration going.

Terry

[thunder66]

thunder66, how much are you practising? Your technique is far better than players I know who knock in 70s and 80s. I would leave your technique alone apart from perhaps trying to open your hand more as you pull the cue back. To practice this try pulling the tip back to the bridge hand thumb without feeling like you are restricting the movement. The cue needs to remain on the same plane as you pull the cue back. At the moment your head slightly lifts and your cue butt rises so try and bring it back straighter and on the cue plane.

Gavin, thank you for the comments, I saw your message on youtube too. I have been practicing 3 to 4 hours a day for the past two years, somewhat shameful I'm still at where I am today :P And thank you for the encouragement, I think I'll concentrate more on the break building as you suggested, technique wise probably focus on making sure cue is one the same plane, and also pull back slow on the last draw does help!

Apart from this just practice your breakbuilding. Do routines such as setting up 3 reds and all the colours and trying to clear for a 50+ break. If you miss you must start again. I noticed when you missed on the video you carried on. Really I would prefer that you start the practice again. My view is that improving your technique will improve your game by a black or two whereas choosing different shots and improving your touch around the pink and black will soon get you knocking in 50s. Practice potting pinks, blacks and clearing the colours. Also do line ups but try them using 3-5 reds so that you have a realistic chance to clear the table. As you get better add more reds. Like I say I think working on your technique is not the way to go at the moment when you can build up your game much quicker. Good luck!

Yes, I should not "cheat" the practice, I understand this is to have some form of penalty and thus simulating the pressure and also the needed concentration, should be tougher on myself, hehe. After adjusting my body alignment, I'm feeling much better and was able to do 10+ black to black, before was getting 5 to 6 on average. I think I'll do more line up, and clearing the colors, actually never really practised that before, and do less long pot attempts.

also one thing I noticed, after I play 30 minute of short game, and when I come back to try long pot practice, it's better than before, then after 10 shots, it gets worse. So I think it may be something mental with the long pot, and that's messing with my delivery.

[Terry Davidson]

thunder:

Please bear in mind though that improvement does not come instantly, it takes some time to work in changes to your technique. With some of them you might even step back a pace before you go forward 2 paces. Don't get disappointed if you have a bad day and stick with it.

Do the line-up to learn basic cueball control. I tell my students when they practice the line-up and miss a pot or position (always try to think 2 shots ahead) then they should re-set the shot and keep playing it until they learn how hard and how high they should be hitting the cueball for their intended position. Some coaches advocate if you miss a pot on the line-up or even kiss another ball that you should re-set them up and start over but unfortunately with a beginner all he would be learning is how to set up the line-up.

Terry

[j6uk]

yeah if you aint clocked 15reds without colors a few times then you may wanna leave the fullline up for later.
but as said above after you've done the line willy nilly then you can be strict, like taking only pinks or go for the max. every decent player has done a max on the linup a few times

[Leo]

yeah if you aint clocked 15reds without colors a few times then you may wanna leave the fullline up for later.
but as said above after you've done the line willy nilly then you can be strict, like taking only pinks or go for the max. every decent player has done a max on the linup a few times

Agreed,but also think that thunder66 with 3/4 hours a day for 2 years should be at a better standard then he currently looks in terms with his breakbuilding

[CoachGavin]

My long pot video - help please

to be honest with that amount of practice you are probably concentrating too much on technique in my opinion. Do not change too much now and just play. The aim is to play naturally without thinking of your technique to allow your brain to think about position etc. like I said then work on simple routines that are challenging but not too hard so 5 red line up, clearing colours, clearing 4 reds with 4 pinks etc. If you miss or cannon another ball start again. I think in a few weeks you will improve more than the last 6 months as you will play subconciously.

[md5299]

Specially when you catch you nipple on a power shot!

yes suck in the breast does feel a lot smoother delivery, nice!

How do i "stroke in" but not "hitting"? I really wanna quit to be a chest thumper, it does hurt sometime, and creates tension everywhere...

[j6uk]

Compared to my videos a year ago, it seems I always have the same problem, and I wonder if that's the reason my long pot is never more than 50% success rate even in practice, and after two years of dedicated practices, my average good break is still at 25 to 30.

your approach to the shot looks a little odd. as your hand hits the cloth your legs kinda unfold and this could be taking you off line. try pushing into the floor more with your left/support leg and this will put a little more weight onto your right/brace leg, this should move you over slightly to the right and put your elbow and cue in line with the center of the white. but when you hit the cloth try not to adjust your legs and hips as by the looks of things your doing.
oh and you could get a bit closer to the white to stop your cue from going under the body. smoother slower backswing will help with a smoother more deliberate delivery. wear flat shoes

[CoachGavin]

By the way Terry you originally said

5. Try cueing slowly along the baulkline without any balls and try to keep the right elbow up as high as possible throughout the backswing and delivery and try not to drop it at all. Remember, chest on cue all the time.

then later you have said

It is difficult to keep the cue on the same plane (meaning the butt does not rise and fall at all, but I notice yours does a bit and that is because your grip is still a bit tight and at the end of a longer backswing the elbow has to drop a bit at the very end of the backswing. At the start of the delivery the elbow returns to it's highest point quickly and then the elbow may drop again at the end of the delivery although there really is not reason it has to but some players will do this naturally as it's a certain way to properly complete the delivery and to also keep the cue on the same plane.

I think this is a bit confusing as players will not know whether the elbow should be dropping or not when they play?

Anyway, Thunder I strongly urge you to not to get too technical now as you will ruin your game. Many people get too involved in the technical side when all they need is to practice and to try out different shots and change their shot selection to build bigger breaks. Just my opinion.

[Terry Davidson]

By the way Terry you originally said

5. Try cueing slowly along the baulkline without any balls and try to keep the right elbow up as high as possible throughout the backswing and delivery and try not to drop it at all. Remember, chest on cue all the time.

then later you have said

It is difficult to keep the cue on the same plane (meaning the butt does not rise and fall at all, but I notice yours does a bit and that is because your grip is still a bit tight and at the end of a longer backswing the elbow has to drop a bit at the very end of the backswing. At the start of the delivery the elbow returns to it's highest point quickly and then the elbow may drop again at the end of the delivery although there really is not reason it has to but some players will do this naturally as it's a certain way to properly complete the delivery and to also keep the cue on the same plane.

I think this is a bit confusing as players will not know whether the elbow should be dropping or not when they play?

Anyway, Thunder I strongly urge you to not to get too technical now as you will ruin your game. Many people get too involved in the technical side when all they need is to practice and to try out different shots and change their shot selection to build bigger breaks. Just my opinion.

Gavin:

The only time the elbow should drop on the backswing is when it is a longer backswing and this is only done to keep the cue on the same vertical plane since the grip alone cannot compensate when the backswing is over somewhere around 6-7". On any shorter backswing there is no reason to drop the elbow at all as you can easily keep the cue on the same vertical plane by just allowing the cue to push the back fingers out of the way.

On the delivery it's not really necessary to drop the elbow at all but a lot of players will do it naturally on a high power shot. It doesn't really gain the player anything since the follow-through only lengthens about 1/2" or so but it does give the feeling of completing the shot correctly.

As long as a player doesn't drop the elbow before or at the strike it should not have any effect on the accuracy of the shot but dropping the elbow on delivery should only be done at the very end of the delivery.

I didn't mean to confuse anyone but the part to remember is do whatever you have to do to keep the cue on the same vertical plane (avoid the 'pump handle' technique with the tip rising and falling) is the correct way to go. If you are a player with a long backswing, bringing the ferrule to the 'V' of the bridge then you will have to drop the elbow a little bit at the very end of that long backswing. If you want to follow the Joe Davis method for high power shots with a longer follow-through then you will also have to drop the elbow at the very end of the delivery.

The danger becomes a matter of timing, i.e. - where does the elbow drop happen in the delivery and also I see a lot of players who drop the elbow a lot, probably more than 6" on the delivery (watch Tony Knowles) and this just can't be good.

Terry

[CoachGavin]

Terry,I agree with what you say I just thought you made it a little unclear. I think the main objective is to concentrate on following the plane of the cue and not concentrating on what the elbow is doing. The elbow will sort itself out.

[thunder66]

Terry,I agree with what you say I just thought you made it a little unclear. I think the main objective is to concentrate on following the plane of the cue and not concentrating on what the elbow is doing. The elbow will sort itself out.

Thank you Terry and Gavin for the clarification.

I did realize my cue action was not on the same plane, in fact maybe my grip was not loosen up enough at the end of the backswing, the cue pushed up against my chest, and caused my head to go up and down. So now I'm pulling the cue more leveled, it lightly brushes chest, and my head's movement has reduced, so are other body movements.

to be honest with that amount of practice you are probably concentrating too much on technique in my opinion. Do not change too much now and just play. The aim is to play naturally without thinking of your technique to allow your brain to think about position etc. like I said then work on simple routines that are challenging but not too hard so 5 red line up, clearing colours, clearing 4 reds with 4 pinks etc. If you miss or cannon another ball start again. I think in a few weeks you will improve more than the last 6 months as you will play subconciously.

Gavin, for 5 reds line up, where should the 5 reds be at? black's end or brown?

And 4 reds with pink, are reds to be placed as a diamond around pink? or like line up in a straight line above and below pink?

Thanks!

[md5299]

1 red behind the black and 4 between black and pink,don't try to pot the black with every red play the pink as well and pot balls into the middle pockets as to make high breaks you usually have to get a few of these.The 4 reds around the pink,mix it up,play centre ball,good luck.