Should J6 post a video up to prove he's as good as he says Poll..

[rimmer10]

I would say that first and foremost that coaching has to bear fruit before anyone else would want to take up on it.

Those who ask for advice on this forum and get it, are far too quick to sprout their thanks to whoever gives it before actually trying it out over several months and letting the rest of us know that it has indeed improved their game.

I've lost count of the number of times I've read " thanks for that Terry" half a hour after the original request for help only to hear nothing about whether the advice worked or not.

You must remember nrage, high break of 26, who had a coaching session from Terry and paraphrased him to the hilt on this forum, yet didn't improve one iota, having gushes of praise thrown his way for nearly everything he posted.
My argument with him was that he could study snooker technique as theory and pass it on, but he wasn't in a position to actually show anyone what to do as he himself couldn't do it and therefore surely he didn't really know that what he was passing on was valid as it hadn't worked for him.

A different argument again is with J6 who can do it, but doesn't seem to be able to put into words just what it is he does.

Those who really struggle at snooker need J6 to be like nrage, talk them through the technique and put it into action so that it can be seen to work.

And to be honest the majority of 20 breakers aren't aware of the real target in snooker and don't look at the object ball. It's pretty much that simple and also that difficult all at the same time, for if you don't naturally sight and focus on the object ball then training yourself to do so is extremely difficult. So difficult that most who try it think it doesn't work; unaware of the fact that they aren't doing it when they think they are.

Very good post, however I have to disagree on one point. I do actually think that J6 is very good with words. As a 20 break player I'm sure you can imagine I struggle with pretty much every aspect of the game. Take the backswing for example. Is it long enough? Too Fast? Too slow etc. etc... That was until j6 made a comment he probably don't even remember making. He likened the ideal backswing to "a ball rolling up a ramp". In that instance, I got it. No need to spend hours and hours practicing the backswing, it was there. Not even Shakespeare- if he would have been a snooker player- could have captured it better.

[tedisbill]

again i disagree, i don't see the correlation between a coach who can make 100 and one that can't are (who hasn't being able to) teach someone to do it.

a coach will have enough knowledge and experience to know what shot is the best to take on to continue a break, the fact he might not be able to make a 100 in his playing career could be due to other factors , like technique , cueball control, splits when breaking up the pack or clusters, might not be bothered and most of all luck .

a good coach will know what is the best shot for a certain situation and this has no relation to how many tons he's made.

sometimes players can miss out on making a ton through bad luck, a kick or just a lack of concentration and may be nothing to do with shot selection.

So your coach has a terrible technique, can't control the white, can't split the reds or play controlled cannons and just generally can't be bothered. Oh and hes got terribly bad luck...

You got his number please?

[ADR147]

alex ferguson was an average player who became the most successful manager ever.

[tedisbill]

alex ferguson was an average player who became the most successful manager ever.

Don't think football is a good comparison. The managers are not teaching them how to kick a ball. How to curl a ball. How to technically play football. The players can already play football to an unbelievable level, it's then a different sort of help that a football manager assists with. I don't think football managers would be any good at helping someone that could barely kick a ball.

[ADR147]

Don't think football is a good comparison. The managers are not teaching them how to kick a ball. How to curl a ball. How to technically play football. The players can already play football to an unbelievable level, it's then a different sort of help that a football manager assists with. I don't think football managers would be any good at helping someone that could barely kick a ball.

still think teaching has nothing to do with your personal level of skill at something, i know lots and lots of great players who would be terrible at teaching.

[tedisbill]

still think teaching has nothing to do with your personal level of skill at something, i know lots and lots of great players who would be terrible at teaching.

I don't disagree that being good yourself would necessarily make you a good teacher. There would be loads of good players that would be terrible at explaining something, or just couldn't really explain something.

However, you might be the best teacher in the world, but that won't help you teach something that you don't actually understand. That just doesn't make any sense.

[ADR147]

I don't disagree that being good yourself would necessarily make you a good teacher. There would be loads of good players that would be terrible at explaining something, or just couldn't really explain something.

However, you might be the best teacher in the world, but that won't help you teach something that you don't actually understand. That just doesn't make any sense.

but you can have a very good understanding of something without being good at it - take a look at all the top gymnastics coaches they are all my size but the sport is competed in by tiny girls!

[alabadi]

So your coach has a terrible technique, can't control the white, can't split the reds or play controlled cannons and just generally can't be bothered. Oh and hes got terribly bad luck...

You got his number please?

actually the coach i use can make a ton or at least use to, the point is he knows every shot in the book,

but by your analogy, if someone can make a 70 or 80 break but can't make a 100 they know nothing about shot selection, can't control the cueball and shouldn't coach.

he knows about strategy, shot selection and the mental side of the game, and can convey that information on to me. just because someone can't put together a 100 break in one frame doesn't mean they are not good enough to pass on their knowledge and expertise of the game.

let me just put this to you. if you were being coached through a break by a coach who's played the game knows all the shots understands everything about shot selection wouldn't he be able to coach you through a break to make a hundred as long as you are a good potter and have good technique there would be no reason not to. ( i think most players fail to make high breaks because of bad shot selection)

and that's my point, his skill is how he teaches not how many tons he's had or can get.

this is exactly what happened to me, he coached me through a break and i made 67, i have never made a break that much in a game yet.
and the only reason that break ended was because of me, i got a bit ahead of myself and i messed up a simple shot otherwise it could have been higher.

[itsnoteasy]

I think you have to be a top player to coach, (not on about showing basics, but to take someone right through to a very good standard)you can explain something to someone and even show them what you have read in a book, but what do you do if they can't do it?,because you haven't gone through this you won't have that understanding of the situation so it must make it harder to help correct mistakes, that's if you can even spot them.
Textbooks can teach you a lot, but experience and understanding is that extra thing that a top player will have over that kind of coach, of course that's all things being equal and they are both as good as getting their points across. At the end of the day though it's up to the pupil, if they put the work in the coaching will help, if they don't all the coaching in the world won't.

[j6uk]

I think you have to be a top player to coach, (not on about showing basics, but to take someone right through to a very good standard)you can explain something to someone and even show them what you have read in a book, but what do you do if they can't do it?,because you haven't gone through this you won't have that understanding of the situation so it must make it harder to help correct mistakes, that's if you can even spot them.
Textbooks can teach you a lot, but experience and understanding is that extra thing that a top player will have over that kind of coach, of course that's all things being equal and they are both as good as getting their points across. At the end of the day though it's up to the pupil, if they put the work in the coaching will help, if they don't all the coaching in the world won't.

...........bingo

[md5299]

Only way is 1 on 1 plus hours on the practice table,i practice 10 hours a week on my own after not playing for 20 years,plus i agree with all you say...................i could read a book on how to play golf and would be cra*.i see you have a quote from jack karnehm,i spent quite a bit of time with him years ago,he was a gem.

i think you have to be a top player to coach, (not on about showing basics, but to take someone right through to a very good standard)you can explain something to someone and even show them what you have read in a book, but what do you do if they can't do it?,because you haven't gone through this you won't have that understanding of the situation so it must make it harder to help correct mistakes, that's if you can even spot them.
Textbooks can teach you a lot, but experience and understanding is that extra thing that a top player will have over that kind of coach, of course that's all things being equal and they are both as good as getting their points across. At the end of the day though it's up to the pupil, if they put the work in the coaching will help, if they don't all the coaching in the world won't.

[alabadi]

I think you have to be a top player to coach, (not on about showing basics, but to take someone right through to a very good standard)you can explain something to someone and even show them what you have read in a book, but what do you do if they can't do it?,because you haven't gone through this you won't have that understanding of the situation so it must make it harder to help correct mistakes, that's if you can even spot them.
Textbooks can teach you a lot, but experience and understanding is that extra thing that a top player will have over that kind of coach, of course that's all things being equal and they are both as good as getting their points across. At the end of the day though it's up to the pupil, if they put the work in the coaching will help, if they don't all the coaching in the world won't.

I agree Jim, it's upto the learner , a coach can show you but you have to spend hours and hours getting those techniques right.

And this is what I mean. Most coaches have been players some reached pro level some not. But still very good players. They will have come across every situation, so they will have the knowledge to pass to the student , the best coaches are those who have a natural gift at teaching those who can adapt there teaching methods for different abilities of the learner, and can come up with a plan to get the best out of them.

And as u said ultimately its down to the learner

[j6uk]

I agree Jim, it's upto the learner , a coach can show you but you have to spend hours and hours getting those techniques right.

And this is what I mean. Most coaches have been players some reached pro level some not. But still very good players. They will have come across every situation, so they will have the knowledge to pass to the student , the best coaches are those who have a natural gift at teaching those who can adapt there teaching methods for different abilities of the learner, and can come up with a plan to get the best out of them.

And as u said ultimately its down to the learner

sorry but your a bit floppy here on this thread.. but now your finally right in saying most/all good coaches have been good players. and we're not talking about people who've made a handful of little tons.

[itsnoteasy]

Only way is 1 on 1 plus hours on the practice table,i practice 10 hours a week on my own after not playing for 20 years,plus i agree with all you say...................i could read a book on how to play golf and would be cra*.i see you have a quote from jack karnehm,i spent quite a bit of time with him years ago,he was a gem.

You lucky lucky git MD lol, if you can be bothered I would love to hear about the time you spent with him, I bought his video , after being shown a clip on YouTube that was put up on here and loved the way he set about things, I would definitely have gone and got some coaching from him if I played back then.

[j6uk]

i remember jack saying if your low on the black hit it thicker and high hit it thinner, so basically your more certain to pot the black if you aim for the far jaw. just one of many little gems that stuck