Helping side

[Terry Davidson]

But has that anything to do with helping side, helping side is making the object ball react differently on contact, not how much your cue pushes the cue ball offline when using side, or have I got it wrong?

If you don't normally use helping side then don't try and get it into your game. I have never read or heard anything from the top players like ROS, Hendry Davis, Williams, Higgins, Reardon, John Spencer and Joe Davis and all of these players won multiple world champs between them. However, it looks like Jack Karnham and Willie Thorne advocate the use of this but when you compare their records to the players I've mentioned there's not much there. Jack Karnham was primarily a billiards player and Willie was best at making practice 147s but never made one in a ranking tournament that I remember.

If you do use helping side and believe in it then more power to you, and keep on using it for goodness sakes, just as some players believe they play better with a 62" cue. What ever gives you confidence and floats your boat is the best for YOU, but might not be best for the other 5 million players out there.

Terry

[Byrom]

america pool balls don't do helping side

Don't really need it on them tables - miss by a foot it still goes in-

[vmax4steve]

If you don't normally use helping side then don't try and get it into your game. I have never read or heard anything from the top players like ROS, Hendry Davis, Williams, Higgins, Reardon, John Spencer and Joe Davis and all of these players won multiple world champs between them. However, it looks like Jack Karnham and Willie Thorne advocate the use of this but when you compare their records to the players I've mentioned there's not much there. Jack Karnham was primarily a billiards player and Willie was best at making practice 147s but never made one in a ranking tournament that I remember.

actually he did make one.

Terry

The argument is whether the cue ball deflects and swerves to make the object ball look like it comes off the cue ball at a thinner or thicker angle or the cue ball contacts the object ball in the wrong place and the spin loaded on the cue ball throws the object ball at a different angle than it would with a plain ball shot making the same contact point.

My argument is the former, I can't for the life of me see it any other way except when a kick happens, but to be honest although I think Pendantic Stroke is wrong and Mr. Big Shot is simply bigging up 9 ball to be more difficult than it is, the outcome of the shot is basically the same.

j6

if you believe the cue ball travels straight when loaded with side I would suggest you play a few shots with both left and right hand side, cue ball touching the top cushion, into both top (black) pockets. You will see the cue ball leave the cushion and come back with one side and also dig straight into the cushion and come away from it with the other.

Now if the cushion wasn't there this deflection would be hardly noticeable but enough to miss a pot if not compensated for.

[DeanH]

Helping side

willie thorne made the 4th official 147 in Nov 1987 but supposedly made over 147 maximums in practice and exhibitions
:wink:

[itsnoteasy]

If you don't normally use helping side then don't try and get it into your game. I have never read or heard anything from the top players like ROS, Hendry Davis, Williams, Higgins, Reardon, John Spencer and Joe Davis and all of these players won multiple world champs between them. However, it looks like Jack Karnham and Willie Thorne advocate the use of this but when you compare their records to the players I've mentioned there's not much there. Jack Karnham was primarily a billiards player and Willie was best at making practice 147s but never made one in a ranking tournament that I remember.

If you do use helping side and believe in it then more power to you, and keep on using it for goodness sakes, just as some players believe they play better with a 62" cue. What ever gives you confidence and floats your boat is the best for YOU, but might not be best for the other 5 million players out there.

Terry

I'm not one hundred percent convinced of it Terry, and as you have hinted it may well have come from the billiards players, but some of the shots those fellas can pull off using side is quite impressive.
Vmax the only argument I have against your point of view and if you can explain it I think I could be won over. If cutting the black to the left ,helping side is played as right hand side, so as I said before if the cue ball slightly swerves it would do it left to right or in to out, but for it to come in at a different angle when cutting to the left would the cue ball not have to go out to in, in other words have left hand side on it?

[j6uk]

vmax
i don't really do side but when i do its only just outside the center of the white, thats in snooker and pool, and i can create all the stuff i need.. but i will now need to get on a pool table to cement my thoughts on this throw squirty thing

[Ramon]

If you don't normally use helping side then don't try and get it into your game. I have never read or heard anything from the top players like ROS, Hendry Davis, Williams, Higgins, Reardon, John Spencer and Joe Davis and all of these players won multiple world champs between them. However, it looks like Jack Karnham and Willie Thorne advocate the use of this but when you compare their records to the players I've mentioned there's not much there. Jack Karnham was primarily a billiards player and Willie was best at making practice 147s but never made one in a ranking tournament that I remember.

If you do use helping side and believe in it then more power to you, and keep on using it for goodness sakes, just as some players believe they play better with a 62" cue. What ever gives you confidence and floats your boat is the best for YOU, but might not be best for the other 5 million players out there.

Terry

Terry, as I have always said,, I respect you as an experienced snooker coach!! But with all due respect for your opinion, I'm not agree with you.
There is no way, that ROS can make ( about 760 ) century breaks without using helping side.
Is an indispensable factor for a snooker player who want to play in high level. I don't mean a player who makes a break of 20, but a player who regularly makes high breaks. IMO !!!

[j6uk]

a player who uses 'helping side' is a player who uses side all the time for no apparent reason. this player is a fairly good club player and does 40-60 breaks at best. but the genuine good player uses side only when it 'helps them'

[Ramon]

Lol! A self adjusting cue is a great idea, you'll make a fortune. Get dr dave to shill it for you

Did you see the recent itv documentary on jimmy white, where he said he was completely self trained and had no idea HOW he potted balls, he just learned the game as he played? Today, thanks to hardcore physics nerds like dr dave, we now know how the balls interact upon contact in ways players from the past simply couldnt do. High speed video allows us to see exactly whats happening and shows us how the eye can deceive us.

The question is, is it better to know, or is ignorance bliss? I would advise venturing into this territory only if you're a hardcore nerd with too much time on your hands. Otherwise, let the brain take over.

Many thanks for your rplay and your time.
Well, you do'nt have to tell me who Dr Dave is!!! I know him pretty well. I have spoken to him and I have played against him! (years ago).
You have certain disagreements with some other Members here.
As I have explained in my previous post!! most conclusions of these people is based on their experience on the US pool table. NOT SNOOKER !!!
Is true, useing a cue (as Z shaft of predator),, with high percent of Density, can make your work easier.
But, eventually the technique of the player is the most important thing !!!
Does This means: you can not play 9 ball with a snooker cue (ash shaft)??? absolutely not. If you're a good player, you can play 9 ball with any kind of shaft!!! But I'm agree with you, that there is a big difference between these two games (snooker and US pool).
anyway,, this is Just my opinion. !!!

[Terry Davidson]

Terry, as I have always said,, I respect you as an experienced snooker coach!! But with all due respect for your opinion, I'm not agree with you.
There is no way, that ROS can make ( about 760 ) century breaks without using helping side.
Is an indispensable factor for a snooker player who want to play in high level. I don't mean a player who makes a break of 20, but a player who regularly makes high breaks. IMO !!!

I'm afraid I just can't agree with you. Both Steve Davis and Hendry advocated centre-ball striking and I've never seen Ronnie say anything about 'helping side' but then again maybe I missed the comment.

I have made a lot of century breaks in my snooker career and have never used helping side at all. I believe it's a myth.

Terry

[Ramon]

I'm afraid I just can't agree with you. Both Steve Davis and Hendry advocated centre-ball striking and I've never seen Ronnie say anything about 'helping side' but then again maybe I missed the comment.

I have made a lot of century breaks in my snooker career and have never used helping side at all. I believe it's a myth.

Terry

Terry, I'm sure I don't have to explain this! you know this much better than me!! useing side is not same as useing helping side!! These two are not same!! J6 made a good observation!! No one says that you should use that every time!! use it, if you need it!!! Let me ask you what. are u saying, that a player who makes 147 break, is actually able to combine all those red balls with black and keep the CB in good position every time, without useing helping side??
Is this what u re saying ??

[guernseygooner]

I've just come in after a load of beers, i haven't read all this thread so I'm probably talking sh*t but I haven't or know of anyone using so called 'helping side' to throw a ball in.

Break build using as little cushions as possible and up and down the middle of the white is what it's all about as far I'm concerned!

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

If you don't normally use helping side then don't try and get it into your game. I have never read or heard anything from the top players like ROS, Hendry Davis, Williams, Higgins, Reardon, John Spencer and Joe Davis and all of these players won multiple world champs between them. However, it looks like Jack Karnham and Willie Thorne advocate the use of this but when you compare their records to the players I've mentioned there's not much there. Jack Karnham was primarily a billiards player and Willie was best at making practice 147s but never made one in a ranking tournament that I remember.

actually he did make one.

Terry

The argument is whether the cue ball deflects and swerves to make the object ball look like it comes off the cue ball at a thinner or thicker angle or the cue ball contacts the object ball in the wrong place and the spin loaded on the cue ball throws the object ball at a different angle than it would with a plain ball shot making the same contact point.

My argument is the former, I can't for the life of me see it any other way except when a kick happens, but to be honest although I think Pendantic Stroke is wrong and Mr. Big Shot is simply bigging up 9 ball to be more difficult than it is, the outcome of the shot is basically the same.

j6

if you believe the cue ball travels straight when loaded with side I would suggest you play a few shots with both left and right hand side, cue ball touching the top cushion, into both top (black) pockets. You will see the cue ball leave the cushion and come back with one side and also dig straight into the cushion and come away from it with the other.

Now if the cushion wasn't there this deflection would be hardly noticeable but enough to miss a pot if not compensated for.

Dude, the effects of throw are not open to debate. It is fact, demonstrably proven, collaborated by both science and millions of players. That you don't know about it is neither here nor there, although rather telling.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Terry, as I have always said,, I respect you as an experienced snooker coach!! But with all due respect for your opinion, I'm not agree with you.
There is no way, that ROS can make ( about 760 ) century breaks without using helping side.
Is an indispensable factor for a snooker player who want to play in high level. I don't mean a player who makes a break of 20, but a player who regularly makes high breaks. IMO !!!

I'm afraid I just can't agree with you. Both Steve Davis and Hendry advocated centre-ball striking and I've never seen Ronnie say anything about 'helping side' but then again maybe I missed the comment.

I have made a lot of century breaks in my snooker career and have never used helping side at all. I believe it's a myth.

Terry

Not a myth, just personal preference. There are pool pros who advocate using TOI (touch of inside) on every shot. One of the arguments for using either helping side or TOI is it's very difficult to find the centre of the CB on every shot, so you can compensate for this by specifically aiming a little away from centre.

At pro levels, those that have truly mastered centre ball are the best players. Consistently hitting the centre of the CB is the most difficult skill in cuesports IMO.

[Ramon]

Not a myth, just personal preference. There are pool pros who advocate using TOI (touch of inside) on every shot. One of the arguments for using either helping side or TOI is it's very difficult to find the centre of the CB on every shot, so you can compensate for this by specifically aiming a little away from centre.

At pro levels, those that have truly mastered centre ball are the best players. Consistently hitting the centre of the CB is the most difficult skill in cuesports IMO.

Good post !!! Btw , Is Not only your opinion. according Chris Henry: majority of players who think they hit the center of the CB every time ( consistent ),, , are wrong. They do'nt !!!!! I'am agree with him 100 pct !!!!!