Plain ball all the time - nonsense

[tedisbill]

We have tournaments here maybe 2 times a year if we are lucky. They are often poorly managed, no refs, poor gamesmanship, and half the time I don't even hear about them because the local organization can't seem to get organized. So nearly all my tonnes past and future will be with friends or m8s at the club. If you want to break down tonnes into categories, then we should also have categories for balls used (heavy and light), pocket sizes (small, medium, large), cloth type (carpet, or ice rink), ref or no ref, money gambled (lunch, car, or house).

You go first.

Anyways, the semantics don't matter and I shouldn't have even responded and you shouldn't care. What matters is what I'm having for breakfast.

The semantics do matter actually when it comes to this discussion.

You can always go down the line of "nothing at all matters". I agree. I'm not religious, so I'm just doing the same as every other human on this planet: spending my time doing various things each day, to get a reasonable amount of enjoyment from each day until I die.

I just found it very odd, that somebody would be so pleased with a massive personal achievement like knocking in a 101 (in practice with a friend on a 10 foot table). Yet when the same person knocks in a 134 (in practice with a friend on a FULL SIZED table), it's not even worth mentioning. Is it just me that thinks that's odd? Because that's the goal for most amateurs on this forum: to be able to achieve really good snooker in proper frames against their friends.

[Terry Davidson]

Well Cliff the greatest ever Canadian player has won a bit more than you in the game Tel - is he wrong?

Next time you come to the UK - if you get over for the worlds I would have you a friendly game first to ten if you want pal no worries - you hit your plain ball stuff and I will mix it up and we see who comes out on top eh?

My argument is that I don't know of ANY current pro in the top 32 that does just hit plain centre ball striking all the time - the game has moved on what is your response?

Christ Byrom. I think you started this thread just to stir the pot up a bit. So what does Cliff being a better player than me have to do with your argument? What does your skill level compared to mine have to do with your argument? You make statement that have no bearing on what you started with. You want me to travel 5,000 miles so I can have the privilege of playing you in a challenge match...dream on. Besides which, you take the word of a player who can't run 4 reds/blacks in a line-up as gospel that Cliff uses helping side on all his pots? Get real!

First of all, I doubt very much if ANY of the top 32 pros in the world use 'helping side' on EVERY one of their pots. That is your statement which I object to. Of course all good players will use side for some of their pots and every one of us will use side on the break shot, why?...because there are cushions involved. It's fine for YOU but what and how you play might not be the silver bullet for the rest of the players but here you are trying to convince everyone your way is the best way. I think you need to stop listening to your ego so much. It appear Les has already bought into your argument and believe me, it will cost him if he tries it.

As an example here is a shot to consider...rubber game in a big match and you are playing a player of equal skill. Black game ball with black on the blue spot and you are running out but over-hit the pink and the cueball ends up near the yellow spot. Every player I know would hit this pot with centre-ball with a touch of bottom (including me) but you advocate using right-hand side in this case. Because you do that and you're on a strange table your brain has to work out just how much to compensate in your aiming whereas the player who uses centre-ball doesn't have to work out any compensation. So what is the best option?

The problem with using helping side is you always have to compensate and that is another variable you have to control accurately and the amount of compensation varies with the distance between balls. I never said EVERY pro hits centre-ball all the time but when there's no cushion involved MOST pros will use centre-ball striking.

[itsnoteasy]

I feel this argument is all over the place, I think it's reasonable for a coach to tell a beginner to only use centre ball striking, and for the life of me I don't get the argument that it's almost impossible to hit centre ball consistently , but for some reason it's easier to hit one tip left or right of centre all the time? How is that, it's hard to hit the same place on the cue ball all the time no matter where you try and hit, but surely there is a bigger sweet spot that runs down the centre of the cue ball isn't there?
There is a saying that goes ,learn to use side ,then stop using it, and I think that means as you get better you will need it less as you will be in position more, but it's a very handy thing to be able to use for all types of things, from recovery shots and long shots, so you can swing round the back of the pack , to little shots to widen or narrow the angle round the black spot, but most of these are trace side, half a tip or less off centre.
The way the argument has been made I think the question should have been what pros use side on every shot? As that is just as legitimate as asking what pros only use centre ball,The answer to both question would be none, they use it when they need it , like Ted hinted at it's just another shot like screwback, top or stun, learn them all and use them when needed.
Lastly I don't know any coach that says never ever use side ,( I don't know many coaches to be fair, )but from what I can gather i doubt Nic, or Dell , or Terry Griffiths have had Ding, Ronnie etc in and told them to stop using side it's holding them back, but i bet if i went down and hit every shot with even a trace of side they would all get me to hit centre ball, wouldn't they?

[Byrom]

Christ Byrom. I think you started this thread just to stir the pot up a bit. So what does Cliff being a better player than me have to do with your argument? What does your skill level compared to mine have to do with your argument? You make statement that have no bearing on what you started with. You want me to travel 5,000 miles so I can have the privilege of playing you in a challenge match...dream on. Besides which, you take the word of a player who can't run 4 reds/blacks in a line-up as gospel that Cliff uses helping side on all his pots? Get real!

First of all, I doubt very much if ANY of the top 32 pros in the world use 'helping side' on EVERY one of their pots. That is your statement which I object to. Of course all good players will use side for some of their pots and every one of us will use side on the break shot, why?...because there are cushions involved. It's fine for YOU but what and how you play might not be the silver bullet for the rest of the players but here you are trying to convince everyone your way is the best way. I think you need to stop listening to your ego so much. It appear Les has already bought into your argument and believe me, it will cost him if he tries it.

As an example here is a shot to consider...rubber game in a big match and you are playing a player of equal skill. Black game ball with black on the blue spot and you are running out but over-hit the pink and the cueball ends up near the yellow spot. Every player I know would hit this pot with centre-ball with a touch of bottom (including me) but you advocate using right-hand side in this case. Because you do that and you're on a strange table your brain has to work out just how much to compensate in your aiming whereas the player who uses centre-ball doesn't have to work out any compensation. So what is the best option?

The problem with using helping side is you always have to compensate and that is another variable you have to control accurately and the amount of compensation varies with the distance between balls. I never said EVERY pro hits centre-ball all the time but when there's no cushion involved MOST pros will use centre-ball striking.

Terry - You advocate not using side or teaching your pupils this but world class players and lots of good players do learn to master it I think.

Firstly - never degrade you pupils Terry - maybe if you had coached him right from the off he perhaps could do more but he will get there.

Secondly - I never said a player should use helping side on every shot and I never said the pro's do it every time but they can and do use it Terry - I said there is no pro in the top 32 that just uses plain ball striking on its own and asked you to name me one - you cant because there is none - so you are misquoting me I think -

I do both I said - I cue all over the white - including plain ball - but I can and do cue left or right of centre ball not always from the centre ball line - this is not unusual and a lot of very good players and pro's do it.

Thirdly this is just an opinion - I am not trying to convince anyone - players all play differently. You advocate not teaching side and making them hit plain ball. I think 'you' are wrong. Les will make his own mind up and find his way on this - me I would listen to what Floyd and Thorburn say first because they have the most experience and knowledge about the game and I am sure you know this too. People can have opinion that differs Terry I think if Les does the routines Ted is getting him to do he will improve. He can already see an improvement this way himself and so can everyone else.

Finally as for my ego - I have none I am rubbish really and I never said I was any good in comparison to some players - My high break is 130 though and I can hold my own I make regular 40's 50's 60's and make the odd 80 -ton here and there - so beating me Mr Master coach multiple 147's should be easy - get over sometime and we will get together and you can find out for yourself - would be interesting to meet you.

[vmax4steve]

Steady Eddie advocated plain ball striking yet was beaten most of the time by the likes of Reardon, Spencer and Alex Higgins who all used side, especially Spencer & Higgins who were inconsistant as a result because they attacked more than Reardon, but still won more world titles than steady Eddie.
The cloths of the time were thicker and the old crystalate balls were heavier so side was a must to move the white around or play safe when out of position like steady Eddie did, hence his nickname.

Modern conditions mean plain ball striking can be used far more often as the white can be moved around more easily, but modern conditions are for the pros only, the rest of us have to contend with club tables and club cloths with a fair bit of nap on them and that means using side to make that first 50 break, not waiting until you make that 50 break before using side. A refusal to learn to use side will hold you back and prevent you from making that first 50 break IMO.

All the pros started out on club tables with club cloths and all of them learned to use side, and all of them take this to the pro table. All that was needed was to learn the slightly different compensation needed on the pot on pro cloths compared to club cloths and the positional play of the pros as a result is far beyond what us mere mortals can achieve on a club table with a club cloth.
The frequency of tons and max's in the modern game show this to be true. The players aren't any better than they were forty years ago, there are simply more of them and the conditions make it easier.

And if a player can use side for positional purposes when the cue ball strikes a cushion, then he can just as well use helping side when not using a cushion as the compensation for the pot is no different.
Helping side does work, it might not be needed on tables with pro conditions, but on a club cloth you can hit a stun/screw shot far softer with a trace of helping side to gain the same position with a much harder struck shot with centre ball striking. Slow table and tight pockets, you soon learn not to hit any shot any harder than you need to. Those who play with helping side do so because it works not because it doesn't, otherwise why would they bother ?

It was part and parcel of the game forty years ago and if centre ball striking is so difficult to master, why bother, surely it would be better to learn to compensate for that trace of side that you put on the cue ball for every shot.

[lesedwards]

Wow I go out to plow snow and I come back to an all out brawl.... okay I said Cliff uses helping side on most of his shots but I guess I better go into detail. If he has a short shot to the side or corner he will use helping side regardless if he is using a cushion afterwards. Very seldom will most guys use it on long shots as the CB will swerve which makes it very hard to judge where you will hit the object ball. But I still see them use it to swing the CB around three cushions back to baulk. The last time I was down to see Cliff I told him I was having problems making half to quarter ball cuts to the side pocket so he had me try them with helping side and I couldn't miss. As far as I am concerned if you have a couple feet between CB & OB and you use helping side which is about a tip width the CB will not go off line providing you stroke straight through.
Go to this video of Ronnie at last years Worlds and go to 18:09. Watch the little left hand side he is using with no cushion.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mr2b6Odw_mQ

If you pause it exactly at 18:09 you will see where he has his tip lined up on the CB. If that is not helping side then I need glasses.

[ace man]

I only have problem accepting advice that you should not use any side at all until you can knock in 50 breaks a few times? I tell you what. 50 break requires at least 14 potted balls with position.
It is impossible for a relative beginner club player who has never hit a ball with side in his life to leave himself such accurate position 14 times in a row.

[Terry Davidson]

BYROM:

I wish you would stop putting words in my mouth, i.e. 'You advocate not using side' and I have NEVER said that. I use side myself on some shots but NOT to help make the pot.

I tell my students to start out using centre-ball until they can master delivering the cue straight and then they should experiment with side BUT not to overdo it since it becomes difficult to control the aim-off on a shot, especially longer ones. So learn how to pot consistently FIRST and then start experimenting.

LES:

If you now believe using 'helping side' helps you to pot long balls better then go ahead and use it all you want as it obviously gives you confidence but don't try and convince me it is an option that should be used by everyone to improve potting. At your skill level how do you know that you putting on helping side is actually causing you to strike centre-ball and canceling out the unintentional side you have on your delivery. The answer is you just don't know. When we did the video analysis on your technique you were striking left-to-right so in my opinion you should learn how to strike centre-ball FIRST and then experiment with helping side since you cannot determine what the effects are until you have a starting point which is striking centre-ball consistently.

But obviously you like to believe it helps so probably it does but all you're doing is canceling out one fault with another fault and leaving yourself more movement to coordinate. Get the basics right first.

[Byrom]

BYROM:

I wish you would stop putting words in my mouth, i.e. 'You advocate not using side' and I have NEVER said that. I use side myself on some shots but NOT to help make the pot.

I tell my students to start out using centre-ball until they can master delivering the cue straight and then they should experiment with side BUT not to overdo it since it becomes difficult to control the aim-off on a shot, especially longer ones. So learn how to pot consistently FIRST and then start experimenting.

LES:

If you now believe using 'helping side' helps you to pot long balls better then go ahead and use it all you want as it obviously gives you confidence but don't try and convince me it is an option that should be used by everyone to improve potting. At your skill level how do you know that you putting on helping side is actually causing you to strike centre-ball and canceling out the unintentional side you have on your delivery. The answer is you just don't know. When we did the video analysis on your technique you were striking left-to-right so in my opinion you should learn how to strike centre-ball FIRST and then experiment with helping side since you cannot determine what the effects are until you have a starting point which is striking centre-ball consistently.

But obviously you like to believe it helps so probably it does but all you're doing is canceling out one fault with another fault and leaving yourself more movement to coordinate. Get the basics right first.

Well this is your own quote here Terry -

The problem I have with your last comment is that you didn't qualify it to the skill level of the player involved. Players who do not have regular 50+ breaks should not be experimenting with side at all, even in safety play.

Are you not wrong here Terry? Me Ace man and quite a few others on the forum would not agree with this coaching philosophy - but you did say it - so I mean I am using your own words here so please enlighten me which is right - don't teach the use of side at all even in safety until you make regular 50's? - or do show them how it helps you out in snooker so that your pupils could make these regular 50's a little easier.

I too think it would be a long wait for a guy to make regular 50's just hitting plain ball you see as you need to learn to manoeuvre the little white thing around the table for the next ball -

[lesedwards]

BYROM:

I wish you would stop putting words in my mouth, i.e. 'You advocate not using side' and I have NEVER said that. I use side myself on some shots but NOT to help make the pot.

I tell my students to start out using centre-ball until they can master delivering the cue straight and then they should experiment with side BUT not to overdo it since it becomes difficult to control the aim-off on a shot, especially longer ones. So learn how to pot consistently FIRST and then start experimenting.

LES:

If you now believe using 'helping side' helps you to pot long balls better then go ahead and use it all you want as it obviously gives you confidence but don't try and convince me it is an option that should be used by everyone to improve potting. At your skill level how do you know that you putting on helping side is actually causing you to strike centre-ball and canceling out the unintentional side you have on your delivery. The answer is you just don't know. When we did the video analysis on your technique you were striking left-to-right so in my opinion you should learn how to strike centre-ball FIRST and then experiment with helping side since you cannot determine what the effects are until you have a starting point which is striking centre-ball consistently.

But obviously you like to believe it helps so probably it does but all you're doing is canceling out one fault with another fault and leaving yourself more movement to coordinate. Get the basics right first.

If you go back and read my post I said on little two foot shots. I said NOT to use side on long ones as the CB swerves and too hard to control.

[lesedwards]

Well this is your own quote -

The problem I have with your last comment is that you didn't qualify it to the skill level of the player involved. Players who do not have regular 50+ breaks should not be experimenting with side at all, even in safety play.

Are you not wrong here Terry?

I use it on some shots when you don't have the angle and you are trying to get back to Baulk. I have also used on the black when I have a very slight angle and you want to move the CB off two cushions back out for a red such as our 4 red routine. I have only hit the 50 mark once. But I feel I have big breaks coming soon as my confidence is growing.

[Terry Davidson]

Well this is your own quote -

The problem I have with your last comment is that you didn't qualify it to the skill level of the player involved. Players who do not have regular 50+ breaks should not be experimenting with side at all, even in safety play.

Are you not wrong here Terry?

I might not always be right, but I'm NEVER ****ing wrong Byrom (old Navy expression from a Chief Petty Officer). If a player can make 50 breaks then he has finally reached the point where he has a good basic technique and can deliver the cue consistently straight. Then he can experiment using helping side if he believes in it.

Even beginning players have to use some side on the break shot. You advocate using helping side on all pots and that is just plain WRONG. I have never said to not use side at all but I have said (as above) a player should reach a certain standard before he starts experimenting with side on anything other than the easiest shots.

[Terry Davidson]

If you go back and read my post I said on little two foot shots. I said NOT to use side on long ones as the CB swerves and too hard to control.

Yes, I did misquote you but you said one thing that was definitely wrong. Even a half-tip width out from centre will throw the cueball and mentally you have to compensate for that in your aim, even if it's only a short shot.

The other thing no one has considered, including you Les, is it is possible to 'cheat the pocket' and get a different angle on the cueball and the pros do that a lot and you even have the commentators pointing it out.

[trains]

- well he was not bad got to a few ranking finals and retired because of a injury to his neck actually which I think was the reason more than anything but he was better than me and made a good living out of the game which is more than a lot of snooker players can say.

A doubter perhaps?

Do you know of any pro in the top 32 that does just hit plain ball? Name me one.

No I was agreeing with your post,I think he refunded his guest fee if he didn't make a century wherever he did an exhibition,money where your mouth is et al.

[Byrom]

No I was agreeing with your post,I think he refunded his guest fee if he didn't make a century wherever he did an exhibition,money where your mouth is et al.

Oh I miss understood yeah cool sorry my apology please - Thought he was a great player who found it difficult to hit centre ball as you said but yet he made centuries and maximums and a good living out of the game.
I don't think he is on his own in the game either - a lot more really good and pro players hit right or left of centre too I am betting.