How much pressure on Bridge hand?

[j6uk]

Clearly, it's the lifting of the grip all along that causes bending of the shaft in a Trump stylie. Deliberate downward pressure onto the bridge, by placing pressure through the grip hand is never a good idea. Any book, coach or player who knows anything about technique will state the grip should be fairly loose, which is (or would be) impossible if the grip was having to provide pressure though the cue and onto the shaft. I'm sure virtually everyone worth their salt would agree with that too. The idea that a pressurised cue shaft at address stores some kind of energy is just ludicrous and should not be taken seriously. If someone feels that's a winner for them, then great, knock yourself out trying that and good luck. But, to suggest it's something that can help other players is a recipe for trouble.


Edit to add....


What exactly is the reference to "coiled spring" about in post 16, 20, 22, 43 and so on.?.... Also, I have never heard the term "downforce" used in relation to good cueing.

I know this is stating the obvious here but to me......

Great cueing is where a player delivers a cue consistently, along a straight line, in as flat a plane as is reasonably possible and with the desired amount of acceleration. Put it this way...If you could use a magic eraser and make the player disappear, so all you could see is the cue travelling through the shot, you would see it moving straight, flat (or flat...ish) and without bending at all before contact. Spin and power are generated by the speed of delivery, coupled with correct point of contact on the cueball and a tip travelling right through and beyond the point of contact against the cueball. Yes, some players have a greater ability to create more power, just as some cues will enable the creation of more movement on the white easily, but the principles are the same for all.

Advocating a technique which attempts to emulate a player (Judd) who causes some bend to his cue shaft during backswing is not great advice, no matter how you slice it. Stating in post 44 that "we have established that Judd Trump uses his chin to bend the cue" is simply not true at all. It's what "you" have assumed to be true, not "we". He bends the cue because he raises his grip hand during backswing, while not raising or moving his head, nothing more than that. He gets his accuracy and power from delivering the cue piston straight with fabulous timing, right through the cueball. The fact that he might have a very responsive cue perhaps helps too, I don't know as I've not used his cue, but on those cloths, moving the white is not too tricky. Joe Swail had shedloads of cuepower, but would anyone want to copy that technique.?...I'd guess not. If anyone wants to model themselves on anything, it should be technical correctness as much as possible. Look to O'Sullivan, Murphy and suchlike if you want to learn how to go about achieving a fabulous technique.

I understand that you weren't the original poster and that your comments are coming with good intentions, but I would be utterly amazed if any professional player actually deliberately applies the sort of pressure required to the cue, in order to bend the shaft intentionally through the shot. Please, if anyone knows of one, let me know and I'll happily eat my words. I apologise for being fairly harsh and critical in my comments, but I stand by the essence of what I wrote. The whole idea of any excessive downward pressure on the cue is simply wrong, whereas doing so to cause deliberate bending of the cue shaft is madness. It is not good advice at all.

I do not post anything just to be argumentative and try to be open to others views, especially when they have merit and come from sound foundations with no agenda.

Anyway, that really is it from me.

Note.... @ J6uk

I'm not really sure what you're getting at in post 61, but I have a suggestion.
getting at nothing, im just chatting

Why doesn't someone email the BBC and ask a question on this when the WC is on.?

A question such as....

"Why does Judd's cue bend during his backswing, and is this something he (or others) would do deliberately to create more control / power.? Is there a benefit to this.?

I'll give £100 to charity of the Forums (or Ferret's) choice if someone gets that question answered on air for all to hear the reply.

we know judd likes a bit of give and hes flat to the table, deliberately no i don't think so, its his crafted technique. one in which i had the pleasure see develop in the early days

[trevs1]

welcome back trev, no one has sugested putting downward pressure on the cue at address and i don't believe judds placing any pressure through his so called grip, or lifting it

Whether it be at address, during backswing or delivery, it's wrong and is not the way good cueing works. (I'm not suggesting it was you who wrote some of this I'm arguing against either)

It's one of the reasons why cues with excessively rear balance don't gain favour amongst players. The cue feels as though the shaft is about to float away into the air. Conversely, a cue with an excessively forward balance, (maybe 18.5" / 19") can, or will, feel like you have a housebrick on the shaft over your bridge hand. This is proof enough that the weight of the cue itself is what keeps it on the bridge, along with some very slight guidance from perhaps the chest or head. This slight guidance from chest / head is not actually placing pressue through the cue though, it just rests there.

As for Mr trump and the vid clip which shows the bending of the cue shaft on that blue he plays (I've watched it now) it's totally obvious that this is purely due to him raising the cue butt during backswing. It might be slight, but that is all that would be required to create the impression of the bending. By the time the tip strikes the white, his cue will be back where it started at address, and will travel through the white as straight as an arrow, as is always the case with Trump. nowhere in all that technique is there any coiled spring, downforce or other such nonsense ready to explode and generate more power. It all comes from correct point of contact on the cueball, with great acceleration and a delivery right through the point at which the cueball sat before it got struck.

There's no magic at play there, just great technique. It's that which players who read this should base themselves on, not some varying pressure on the grip, bridge, chin, cheesecake or whatbloodyever.

Christonabike, how confusing would that be.

[j6uk]

Whether it be at address, during backswing or delivery, it's wrong and is not the way good cueing works. (I'm not suggesting it was you who wrote some of this I'm arguing against either)

It's one of the reasons why cues with excessively rear balance don't gain favour amongst players. The cue feels as though the shaft is about to float away into the air. Conversely, a cue with an excessively forward balance, (maybe 18.5" / 19") can, or will, feel like you have a housebrick on the shaft over your bridge hand. This is proof enough that the weight of the cue itself is what keeps it on the bridge, along with some very slight guidance from perhaps the chest or head. This slight guidance from chest / head is not actually placing pressue through the cue though, it just rests there.

As for Mr trump and the vid clip which shows the bending of the cue shaft on that blue he plays (I've watched it now) it's totally obvious that this is purely due to him raising the cue butt during backswing. It might be slight, but that is all that would be required to create the impression of the bending. By the time the tip strikes the white, his cue will be back where it started at address, and will travel through the white as straight as an arrow, as is always the case with Trump. nowhere in all that technique is there any coiled spring, downforce or other such nonsense ready to explode and generate more power. It all comes from correct point of contact on the cueball, with great acceleration and a delivery right through the point at which the cueball sat before it got struck.

There's no magic at play there, just great technique. It's that which players who read this should base themselves on, not some varying pressure on the grip, bridge, chin, cheesecake or whatbloodyever.
Christonabike, how confusing would that be.

im with you in terms of the cue, but the head is such a big part of developing a strong technique

[buddfridgeman]

Clearly, it's the lifting of the grip all along that causes bending of the shaft in a Trump stylie. Deliberate downward pressure onto the bridge, by placing pressure through the grip hand is never a good idea. Any book, coach or player who knows anything about technique will state the grip should be fairly loose, which is (or would be) impossible if the grip was having to provide pressure though the cue and onto the shaft. I'm sure virtually everyone worth their salt would agree with that too. The idea that a pressurised cue shaft at address stores some kind of energy is just ludicrous and should not be taken seriously. If someone feels that's a winner for them, then great, knock yourself out trying that and good luck. But, to suggest it's something that can help other players is a recipe for trouble.


Edit to add....


What exactly is the reference to "coiled spring" about in post 16, 20, 22, 43 and so on.?.... Also, I have never heard the term "downforce" used in relation to good cueing.

I know this is stating the obvious here but to me......

Great cueing is where a player delivers a cue consistently, along a straight line, in as flat a plane as is reasonably possible and with the desired amount of acceleration. Put it this way...If you could use a magic eraser and make the player disappear, so all you could see is the cue travelling through the shot, you would see it moving straight, flat (or flat...ish) and without bending at all before contact. Spin and power are generated by the speed of delivery, coupled with correct point of contact on the cueball and a tip travelling right through and beyond the point of contact against the cueball. Yes, some players have a greater ability to create more power, just as some cues will enable the creation of more movement on the white easily, but the principles are the same for all.

Advocating a technique which attempts to emulate a player (Judd) who causes some bend to his cue shaft during backswing is not great advice, no matter how you slice it. Stating in post 44 that "we have established that Judd Trump uses his chin to bend the cue" is simply not true at all. It's what "you" have assumed to be true, not "we". He bends the cue because he raises his grip hand during backswing, while not raising or moving his head, nothing more than that. He gets his accuracy and power from delivering the cue piston straight with fabulous timing, right through the cueball. The fact that he might have a very responsive cue perhaps helps too, I don't know as I've not used his cue, but on those cloths, moving the white is not too tricky. Joe Swail had shedloads of cuepower, but would anyone want to copy that technique.?...I'd guess not. If anyone wants to model themselves on anything, it should be technical correctness as much as possible. Look to O'Sullivan, Murphy and suchlike if you want to learn how to go about achieving a fabulous technique.

I understand that you weren't the original poster and that your comments are coming with good intentions, but I would be utterly amazed if any professional player actually deliberately applies the sort of pressure required to the cue, in order to bend the shaft intentionally through the shot. Please, if anyone knows of one, let me know and I'll happily eat my words. I apologise for being fairly harsh and critical in my comments, but I stand by the essence of what I wrote. The whole idea of any excessive downward pressure on the cue is simply wrong, whereas doing so to cause deliberate bending of the cue shaft is madness. It is not good advice at all.

I do not post anything just to be argumentative and try to be open to others views, especially when they have merit and come from sound foundations with no agenda.

Anyway, that really is it from me.

Note.... @ J6uk

I'm not really sure what you're getting at in post 61, but I have a suggestion.

Why doesn't someone email the BBC and ask a question on this when the WC is on.?

A question such as....

"Why does Judd's cue bend during his backswing, and is this something he (or others) would do deliberately to create more control / power.? Is there a benefit to this.?

I'll give £100 to charity of the Forums (or Ferret's) choice if someone gets that question answered on air for all to hear the reply.

Ok so I will try to explain my description of a coiled spring.

With a slight pressure to the bridge and a slightly stronger grip instead of a pendulum motion..free swinging I find that my cue action shortens and becomes more solid..I described this as a coiled spring because the shorter action and feel on the bridge hand ..so when cueing through the white the pull back is short and the follow through is long with acceleration all the way through..
Like holding a spring in your fingers and releasing all that energy...if you can keep the cue straight and this is how the slight increase in bridge pressure helps, you get a really positive shot with good acceleration all the way through and it feels really controlled.

I hope this description helps as I think the original post was asking about down force probably using a loose pendulum motion all the time...I was giving advice based on my years of practice with the hope of helping.

[trevs1]

Fair enough, but I've said enough on this now so will let those who read this thread decide for themselves.

My offer still stands though, so if anyone can get this question asked and answered on the BBC during the WC, £100 goes to charity of choice.

[trevs1]

I'll also give £100 to charity if you promise this year you'll reply to your customers emails within a certain period of time.

Why Leo, you sent me anything.?

[Byrom]

Getting back to the thing - I think the cue bends for Judd because of his chin and a maybe the natural whip of the cue.

Judd has quite a loose flick of the wrist action for most shots he moves slightly forward as part of his timing on certain shots to get through the ball too.

Some players have strange traits Selby and Swail as mentioned - A number of players have some curious things they do that is individual to them and none of which come from any coaching manual I ever read and we all have strengths and weakness's - varying the grip on certain shots is not unusual I have seen lots of players do it -

Now this for some reason has annoyed Trev but when the poster talked about it he was describing something he did that helped him - he - the poster- is a better player than me and so why not try it I thought.

He did not mean or say do it on all the shots - he said it helped on some of them - he described the type of shots - and this is what the poster meant I think - I was sceptical but I tried it and I get what the poster means - one short compact pull back slightly more pressure and through the ball - He's not on about changing your whole action he means for certain shots this helps him - I tried it - it seemed to help me - I feel in varying the grip in this manner it added something to my game and I'm grateful.

One question

Did you try it Trevor?

[trevs1]

Getting back to the thing - I think the cue bends for Judd because of his chin and a maybe the natural whip of the cue.

Judd has quite a loose flick of the wrist action for most shots he moves slightly forward as part of his timing on certain shots to get through the ball too.

Some players have strange traits Selby and Swail as mentioned - A number of players have some curious things they do that is individual to them and none of which come from any coaching manual I ever read and we all have strengths and weakness's - varying the grip on certain shots is not unusual I have seen lots of players do it -

Now this for some reason has annoyed Trev but when the poster talked about it he was describing something he did that helped him - he - the poster- is a better player than me and so why not try it I thought.

He did not mean or say do it on all the shots - he said it helped on some of them - he described the type of shots - and this is what the poster meant I think - I was sceptical but I tried it and I get what the poster means - one short compact pull back slightly more pressure and through the ball - He's not on about changing your whole action he means for certain shots this helps him - I tried it - it seemed to help me - I feel in varying the grip in this manner it added something to my game and I'm grateful.

One question

Did you try it Trevor?

Nope, not likely to either, as I don't really play anymore, but even if I did, this wouldn't get a look in...ever.

I'd have to say too, that it's not something that I would remotely consider, because from what I've read, the concept is bonkers, but hey, each to their own.

I wouldn't say it has annoyed me either. I replied simply because I was reading through stuff while sitting at my PC for a moment, saw it, and thought it was massively misleading to people who read stuff here looking for tips on how to improve. The game is difficult enough for those learning without suggestions that are not relevant to good technical practise.

To be truthful, I should know better and should not reply. It's best just left, as it makes no difference to me.

[j6uk]

Nope, not likely to either, as I don't really play anymore, but even if I did, this wouldn't get a look in...ever.

I'd have to say too, that it's not something that I would remotely consider, because from what I've read, the concept is bonkers, but hey, each to their own.

I wouldn't say it has annoyed me either. I replied simply because I was reading through stuff while sitting at my PC for a moment, saw it, and thought it was massively misleading to people who read stuff here looking for tips on how to improve. The game is difficult enough for those learning without suggestions that are not relevant to good technical practise.

To be truthful, I should know better and should not reply. It's best just left, as it makes no difference to me.

i don't get whats been so out of the box for you, what do you regard relevent and good technical practice. have you ever had coaching and to what level? cus you type alot but your not sounding like you've ever put the work in on the table anywhere near half as much as some of the posters you question here

[GeordieDS]

This thread belongs more to a Quantum Physics forum

[tedisbill]

I'm with Trev here. My goal is to deliver the cue straight and flat through the cue ball with as little interference from me as I can manage.

[Ramon]

I tried it, seems my cue action is more consistent than before. need to try this for at least a week to be sure.

And, I'm still not very certain how the press down force is exerted by the wrist :P

Ramon, let us know your result too :)

To be honest i'm not a coach !! I did try this yesterday !!
In my opinion , what Vmax said in post nr 69 : (((( Ray Reardon says the grip should be firm but not tight so you could just be moving from a loose grip to a slightly firmer one. All this talk about deliberate downward pressure of the cue from the grip hand could simply be the physical sensation of how a firmer grip feels rather than actual pressure being implemented. ))))) is the answer to ur question !!
Is true u can put a slitly pressure on the cue ( FIRMER GRIP ) !! this help u keep the cue in a stg line ( lin of the aim ). is very handy during the power shots / scrw back shots / .... imo , do usually works in combination with a short backswing!!
believe it or not, many players re already doing this, without being aware of it !!
But for the players with a loose grip, might feel like a massive change!! what these players are doing is, actually change their loose grip to a firmer one !!
anyway... this was my opinion and i'm realy glad this works for you !! as long as u can improve ur game !!
btw,, I did sent a question about this to a pro ( someone i know by the chans ) . I can send you his answer, as soon as I receive it (if you're interested and IF I EVER RECEIVE IT !! )
Also read an post of J6, about the head and relax ur neck ... imo: a perfect advice!!
i hope u enjoy ur game and i'm sorry i could not help !!

[GeordieDS]

If this is possible it's for advanced players only,novices or average club players should avoid it like the plague because it will do more harm than good.
Sorry if this is negative but i tried it myself and it's definitely only for players with a very good feel

[Ramon]

If this is possible it's for advanced players only,novices or average club players should avoid it like the plague because it will do more harm than good.
Sorry if this is negative but i tried it myself and it's definitely only for players with a very good feel

To be honest , I would'nt recommend it to a beginner either !! there are some players (like I saw in a few prs Posts ) who believe, to keep ur grip firme, means you have to lift ( RS )The Button up !! imo ,, they are wrong !! You can put more dwnward pressure on the button and still keep The cue as low as possible !! In sum of photo's Or video's , u can see indeed J Trump Or ROS ris the button up . These are players who re useing 2 point contact technique !! Imho ,, and this has nothing to do with put Sum more pressure on the cue !!! anyway ,, I think remains a matter of personal preference !! What works for you is the best !!!

[Leo]

I think physics play an important role in snooker hence why you need a PHD in the game to practice these days
Let A x and A y be the rectangular components of a vector A

then

A = A x + A y this means that vector A is the resultant of vectors A x and A y

A is the magnitude of vector A and similarly A x and A y are the magnitudes of vectors A x and A y

As we are dealing with rectangular components which are at right angles to each other. We can say that:

A = (A x + A y) 1/2

Similarly the angle Q which the vector A makes with the horizontal direction will be

Q = tan -1 (A x / A y)

v̅ = Δs
Δt
a̅ = Δv
Δt
v = v0 + at ∑ F = m a
x = x0 + v0t + ½at2
∑ F = dp
dt
v = ds
dt
a = dv
dt
v2 = v02 + 2a(x − x0)