Front hand and back hand english - Applicable for snooker?

[scarface]

perhaps the hardest thing for me to master as of now, is to play a real good english for positional play. i play relatively good by using angle hit for positional play. been practicing on the aiming line when playing with side but just could not get it right and there's no consistency in my aiming line.

so i came across this youtube video regarding adjusting of aiming line using front/back hand english:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qXJoFOLZZE

i tested the front/back hand english without potting balls, seems pretty good as the cue ball is in a straight line.

but when it comes to potting object balls, it just seems to miss by that little bit, even for easy potting where i was aiming the center of the cue ball and adjust my aiming line using front/back hand english.. i clearly wont miss if i would have played without side.

so, has anybody actually tried using this technique in snooker and excel in it? I know that while playing side, one need to play parallel on the cue ball instead of playing across by adjusting ur aiming line.

this is the only thing that gets me so frustrated. i would very much like to master the application of side.. but just could not. Help?

[Leo]

Oh Jesus.....

[jonny66]

American pool balls are heavier and throw much more than snooker balls when you apply side, the cues are also heavier. Also this thread will be 10 pages long very soon.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Front hand and back hand english - Applicable for snooker?

deflection (or squirt). not throw.

[Terry Davidson]

The only way you can learn about using side is to solo practice it all the time, over and over again. You have to learn from experience how much to adjust your aim when using side and the aim-off (for lack of a better term) will vary with power too. It will also change with a different cue and may even change slightly with a different tip on the same cue.

This is why jonny mentioned the 10 pages long...it's complicated and can only be learned through experience.

[golferson123]

deflection (or squirt). not throw.

Throw not squirt

[scarface]

American pool balls are heavier and throw much more than snooker balls when you apply side, the cues are also heavier. Also this thread will be 10 pages long very soon.

ahh thanks for the insights. i really never thought of this whereby the weight of the balls makes a difference.

[scarface]

The only way you can learn about using side is to solo practice it all the time, over and over again. You have to learn from experience how much to adjust your aim when using side and the aim-off (for lack of a better term) will vary with power too. It will also change with a different cue and may even change slightly with a different tip on the same cue.

This is why jonny mentioned the 10 pages long...it's complicated and can only be learned through experience.

thanks mate. yeah i do understand the different factors that will affect the aim line when applying side. that is why up until now, whenever it is possible and not in a desperate situation, i would never play with side. unless in a situation where the cue ball and object ball is dead straight on the bottom or top cushion and u got to pocket the ball into the corner pocket, in which no side will just leave u in a more painful position lol..

alright i will just keep practicing and practicing.. why cant it be just less complicated? hahahaha..

[Ramon]

thanks mate. yeah i do understand the different factors that will affect the aim line when applying side. that is why up until now, whenever it is possible and not in a desperate situation, i would never play with side. unless in a situation where the cue ball and object ball is dead straight on the bottom or top cushion and u got to pocket the ball into the corner pocket, in which no side will just leave u in a more painful position lol..

alright i will just keep practicing and practicing.. why cant it be just less complicated? hahahaha..

That's a good one !!
Yeah , I wish that was so easy for every one , indeed !!!

[vmax4steve]

It's not complicated at all, first of all completely disregard that pool video, you must never ever aim centre cue ball and then pivot your cue, you must address the cue ball to one side but the cue must be parallel to the centre of the cue ball. These pool players are playing on easy big pocket tables on cloths with no nap and the margins are far tighter on a snooker table.

Secondly aim every shot slightly thicker than needed for the correct contact to pot it, no matter which side you are putting on the cue ball. Do this when standing up behind the shot before getting down into your stance, aim for near or far jaw whichever is the thicker contact.
Look to see whether you missed thick or thin and adjust your aiming accordingly; if you miss thin then aim thicker again, if you miss thick then aim thinner.

Striking harder or softer will produce different results: cue ball spinning with, against or across the nap will produce different results; play all the shots and look to see where the object ball goes when you miss and adjust accordingly.

Oh and keep your eye on the contact point on the object ball you are aiming for and not the contact needed to pot the ball, this is very important.

[Byrom]

You are talking about two different ways of applying side yes -

One of those involves coming at the ball from a different line - therefore mitigating throw - this is called back hand English on that site by Dr Dave you are looking at scarface. Please be aware he is American and applying the physics of ball collision on a pool table with less distance and bigger pockets and applying his own Americanism's to describe the terminology - to a different audience.

Pool players and some very decent snooker players cue all over the white and make it look easy - good to experiment and try different stuff but this is not new stuff he is talking about - billiards players have been doing this stuff for centuries before people like him tried making it a science - you pick up the shots over hundreds of hours of practice you need to put in naturally.

Generally less is more with snooker and side - and I use bits of it during the course of a game mostly to obtain optimum positional line off a cushion for the next ball or pinch an inch - I do it mostly without thinking now but it is fun to experiment and certain flair shots do come into the game - I am often mis-quoted myself by our resident coach on TSF Terry here who thinks I use helping side on every shot - I don't - I do stun up and down plain ball too but I am more in the camp of playing snooker naturally. Using bits of side is just natural for me - but having to shift the ball around on heavy club tables has probably evolved me this way over the years. I notice I do cut down on this when on a proper match table.

Best way is to practice as Terry says - he normally advocates perfecting a good cue action and solid 'fundamentals' as they say over the other side of the pond - first before moving on to stuff like this - he is probably correct on this though he has not mentioned it here.

If you want to practice shots with side - I recommend buying a spotty white ball - it will give you visual feedback - practice n have some fun - get someone in your club who is a good player to show you a few shots with side using the spotty ball you soon get it.

[scarface]

That's a good one !!
Yeah , I wish that was so easy for every one , indeed !!!

damn physics kills us snooker players hahaahaha

[scarface]

It's not complicated at all, first of all completely disregard that pool video, you must never ever aim centre cue ball and then pivot your cue, you must address the cue ball to one side but the cue must be parallel to the centre of the cue ball. These pool players are playing on easy big pocket tables on cloths with no nap and the margins are far tighter on a snooker table.

Secondly aim every shot slightly thicker than needed for the correct contact to pot it, no matter which side you are putting on the cue ball. Do this when standing up behind the shot before getting down into your stance, aim for near or far jaw whichever is the thicker contact.
Look to see whether you missed thick or thin and adjust your aiming accordingly; if you miss thin then aim thicker again, if you miss thick then aim thinner.

Striking harder or softer will produce different results: cue ball spinning with, against or across the nap will produce different results; play all the shots and look to see where the object ball goes when you miss and adjust accordingly.

Oh and keep your eye on the contact point on the object ball you are aiming for and not the contact needed to pot the ball, this is very important.

one piece of an advise here mate.. appreciated it much! yeah those pool tables makes potting so much easier.. but if we switched from snooker to pool, we will look like a damn pro hehehe.. not so too when u comes to think about it as the table are just way too small.. not exciting at all :P

yeap i had been practicing the "aim before getting into shot stance" but still lots more to perfect it. all those endless probabilities on snooker just makes us fall in love with the game more eh? lol

You are talking about two different ways of applying side yes -

One of those involves coming at the ball from a different line - therefore mitigating throw - this is called back hand English on that site by Dr Dave you are looking at scarface. Please be aware he is American and applying the physics of ball collision on a pool table with less distance and bigger pockets and applying his own Americanism's to describe the terminology - to a different audience.

Pool players and some very decent snooker players cue all over the white and make it look easy - good to experiment and try different stuff but this is not new stuff he is talking about - billiards players have been doing this stuff for centuries before people like him tried making it a science - you pick up the shots over hundreds of hours of practice you need to put in naturally.

Generally less is more with snooker and side - and I use bits of it during the course of a game mostly to obtain optimum positional line off a cushion for the next ball or pinch an inch - I do it mostly without thinking now but it is fun to experiment and certain flair shots do come into the game - I am often mis-quoted myself by our resident coach on TSF Terry here who thinks I use helping side on every shot - I don't - I do stun up and down plain ball too but I am more in the camp of playing snooker naturally. Using bits of side is just natural for me - but having to shift the ball around on heavy club tables has probably evolved me this way over the years. I notice I do cut down on this when on a proper match table.

Best way is to practice as Terry says - he normally advocates perfecting a good cue action and solid 'fundamentals' as they say over the other side of the pond - first before moving on to stuff like this - he is probably correct on this though he has not mentioned it here.

If you want to practice shots with side - I recommend buying a spotty white ball - it will give you visual feedback - practice n have some fun - get someone in your club who is a good player to show you a few shots with side using the spotty ball you soon get it.

i always refused to play with side unless im left with a very bad position and 90% of the time i wouldnt be able to pot the object ball but got my position play ok, but that's not much of a use eh lol..

but no doubt that in the game of snooker, get your fundamentals really strong first, then proceed with practicing even harder on side. you can still be a good player even if u dont use much side, but by mastering side, man the whole game just escalated to a whole new level lol..

i'll try to keep practicing. your suggestion of the spotty cue ball is interesting mate lol.. i should get one soon!

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

deflection (or squirt). not throw.

Throw not squirt

Fine. What do you call Cut Induced Throw (CIT) then?

You have to know something exists before you can name it...

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

It's not complicated at all, first of all completely disregard that pool video, you must never ever aim centre cue ball and then pivot your cue, you must address the cue ball to one side but the cue must be parallel to the centre of the cue ball. These pool players are playing on easy big pocket tables on cloths with no nap and the margins are far tighter on a snooker table.

Secondly aim every shot slightly thicker than needed for the correct contact to pot it, no matter which side you are putting on the cue ball. Do this when standing up behind the shot before getting down into your stance, aim for near or far jaw whichever is the thicker contact.
Look to see whether you missed thick or thin and adjust your aiming accordingly; if you miss thin then aim thicker again, if you miss thick then aim thinner.

Striking harder or softer will produce different results: cue ball spinning with, against or across the nap will produce different results; play all the shots and look to see where the object ball goes when you miss and adjust accordingly.

Oh and keep your eye on the contact point on the object ball you are aiming for and not the contact needed to pot the ball, this is very important.

Trump pivots, others too. I highly doubt they do it deliberately or even know they are doing it.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=400746

BHE is an effective method at eliminating deflection. Size of pocket has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is a technique some find useful, is all.

As for aiming shots thicker, and saying hitting harder or softer produces different results, you're describing CIT!