Perplexities of a 'Tomfool'

[Byrom]

Are you for real ?? 1/2" is massive to most people, 3" is ridiculous !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well yes it is a big jump but then again not if you don't hold it right at the end it is not really - you can move up the cue slightly at the back and have a slightly longer bridge. I think V - max is right lots of players do move up in length after using a cue that they are used to that they out grow or start out with and going to a longer cue can straighten you out in the stance.
I don't disagree with anything he has said actually. Takes a bit of getting used to - even two inches I moved up just an inch and a half I feel I see the line better and feel less cramped up with a longer cue and don't think it has anything else to do with anything but preference - J6 himself said he wanted to try one at 58 and a half and there are one or two great players that use over 59 - seen some guy on the forum just an am player but saw a video of him having a few max line ups - he looked ok to me he was on a video where he missed a black on a max - . Not sure on the pro players but I am sure there are some who use longer type cues - Jimmy and Davis look like they use long cues - Robertson too and read somewhere big Ian Mac used a long cue over 59 so to say good players don't use over 59 is wrong because some do including my one of my playing friends who uses a 60 - his high break is 140 so he is not that bad.

Of course I can play well with a shorter cue too but its un-comfy for me in the stance and so I switched - not saying which is better each to their own but in conclusion how can anyone say what is right for one player is right for another - total nonsense.

AND that really is the long and the short of it.

[j6uk]

i had my first ton with a 61 over 25 yrs ago but i came down in length as i improved. an all the best players i know my hight who compete internationaly have done the same.
davis is just over 6 foot an he managed to win 6 worlds with a 57. you simply need to look to the pro game an ask your self why the tall players mostly use stanard length cues, there must be something in it right?

[Leo]

i had my first ton with a 61 over 25 yrs ago but i came down in length as i improved. an all the best players i know my hight who compete internatioaly have done the same.
davis is just over 6 foot an he managed to win 6 worlds with a 57. you simply need to look to the pro game an ask your self why the tall players mostly use stanard length cues. just ask yourself why, here must be something in it right?

pretty sure Neil Robertson plays with a 59" cue.

[j6uk]

pretty sure Neil Robertson plays with a 59" cue.

an thats the top end of stanard length. but dont worry, im not saying if he came down to 57/8 that hed win a few more world titles even though he holds his cue there most of the time

[guernseygooner]

pretty sure Neil Robertson plays with a 59" cue.

He does but holds it around 2-3" in most the time.

[Byrom]

i had my first ton with a 61 over 25 yrs ago but i came down in length as i improved. an all the best players i know my hight who compete internatioaly have done the same.
davis is just over 6 foot an he managed to win 6 worlds with a 57. you simply need to look to the pro game an ask your self why the tall players mostly use stanard length cues. just ask yourself why, here must be something in it right?

Well few reasons because back then cues mostly all used to come that 57 58 length or smaller it was rare to get one the length you had - back in the day 80's 90s. The majority of cues today are made to a standard length - maybe a cue looses a certain feel at a certain length or its harder to get a good piece of wood for a cue maker or that might be nonsense and they just stick with average sizes to sell more I don't know this stuff but you cue makers might have more idea? I don't know and like Vmax said some players get used to playing with what they start out with and practice with 8 hours a day - I started out using a smaller cue and a lot of players like yourself like holding right at the end of a cue that's about right for using a smaller cue.

Lots of pro players use smaller cues Higgins Dott Ding I agree but there are a number who use around 58 and a half or more.

Not sure if Davis's cue was 57 when he started out I take your word on that but its longer now I think - but like I say it don't matter - its what feels right for the player - what is the average 57? Ronnie uses one 58 and a quarter or 1 8th or something he's won a bit - Robertson got his diddy Parris extended he won a bit and Ian Mcullouch who is now retired was a great player I am sure he used something you could hang out your washing on. What does it matter what the pro's use though? It's all individual preference.

Good players use cues of all different sizes weights balance points tip sizes makes models and everything. Its rare to go over 59 but some people do - My mate like I say is a beautiful cueist with his 60 inch cue regular - 60's 70's 80's decent am player - better cue action than a good few pro's and he has beaten a few - his tip needed changing once during a sesh at the club so he used my diddy 58.5 whilst this was being done and he said it felt tiny.

So I think I agree with V-max on the points he made - it allows for more freedom in the stance/bridge and personally I use a longer cue for my back problem - playing with a shorter cue hunches me up and can only manage an hour before the pain kicks in - nothing to do with technique. You knocked in a ton with a 61 inch cue 25 years back - bad players don't do that - I made my first ton with a 57 inch cue you could probably play with a broom handle like me. For whatever reason you use a 57 now but you said yourself you where making the jump up to 58.5 nearer to ROS length - Play with any cue long enough you model your technique around it.

Funnily enough I tried out a cue that was 57 recently and played great with it so might prove you right me saying that, pity it hurt to use it after a bit so I not saying what's wrong or right - there are great long cues and bad ones great small cues and bad ones.

People say the best player of all time is Ronnie his is over 58 length - but who cares what he or anyone else uses its what the player themselves feels comfortable using.

Size don't count as they say - its what you can do with it

Mines a big un

[j6uk]

Well few reasons because back then cues mostly all used to come that 57 58 length or smaller it was rare to get one the length you had - back in the day 80's 90s. The majority of cues today are made to a standard length - maybe a cue looses a certain feel at a certain length or its harder to get a good piece of wood for a cue maker or that might be nonsense and they just stick with average sizes to sell more I don't know this stuff but you cue makers might have more idea? I don't know and like Vmax said some players get used to playing with what they start out with and practice with 8 hours a day - I started out using a smaller cue and a lot of players like yourself like holding right at the end of a cue that's about right for using a smaller cue.

Lots of pro players use smaller cues Higgins Dott Ding I agree but there are a number who use around 58 and a half or more.

Not sure if Davis's cue was 57 when he started out I take your word on that but its longer now I think - but like I say it don't matter - its what feels right for the player - what is the average 57? Ronnie uses one 58 and a quarter or 1 8th or something he's won a bit - Robertson got his diddy Parris extended he won a bit and Ian Mcullouch who is now retired was a great player I am sure he used something you could hang out your washing on. What does it matter what they pro's use though? It's all individual preference.

Good players use cues of all different sizes weights balance points tip sizes makes models and everything. Its rare to go over 59 but some people do - My mate like I say is a beautiful cueist with his 60 inch cue regular - 60's 70's 80's decent am player - better cue action than a good few pro's and he has beaten a few - his tip needed changing once during a sesh at the club so he used my diddy 58.5 whilst this was being done and he said it felt tiny.

So I think I agree with V-max on the points he made - it allows for more freedom in the stance/bridge and personally I use a longer cue for my back problem - playing with a shorter cue hunches me up and can only manage an hour before the pain kicks in - nothing to do with technique. You knocked in a ton with a 61 inch cue 25 years back - bad players don't do that - I made my first ton with a 57 inch cue you could probably play with a broom handle like me. For whatever reason you use a 57 now but you said yourself you where making the jump up to 58.5 nearer to ROS length - Play with any cue long enough you model your technique around it.

Funnily enough I tried out a cue that was 57 recently and played great with it so might prove you right me saying that, pity it hurt to use it after a bit so I not saying what's wrong or right - there are great long cues and bad ones great small cues and bad ones.

People say the best player of all time is Ronnie his is over 58 length - but who cares what he or anyone else uses its what the player themselves feels comfortable using.

Size don't count as they say - its what you can do with it

Mines a big un

i see youve had your seat on the fence recovered

[Byrom]

i see youve had your seat on the fence recovered

Fall off from time to time

[Shockerz]

Sidd:

I'm not a fan of longer cues unless the player is an ex-basketball player and 7ft tall. As j6 says there are a lot of tall pros and they all use cues at 58" or under in most cases but they have learned to cue. In the end I don't think a 59" cue for you would make any difference but learning how to cue well would make all the difference.

The most likely thing that happened when you borrowed that 59" beat up cue is you would likely concentrate more with a different cue and that was the reason you seemed to play better with it.

The other thing is Sidd, you just cannot expect to play any better if you don't get a lot of practice and you seem to be at a stage in your life where there is not much time for snooker. If you cannot get practice you are going to have to settle with the skill level you have now or even expect to lose some of that.

I guess we're all different Terry.

When I started playing again 4 years ago I tried standard cues and they were ok but after seeing a coach it seemed clear I would personally be more comfortable with a 5" cue, yea I could have made adjustments but this was the easier option and it certainly works (apart from normal ups and downs) and feels right.

I also use the mini butt often so I can reach past the blue comfortably.

I saw Jimmy White use a half butt and rest the cue on it in a normal snooker stance instead of the usual stance taken when using a rest and he used to pot ok with it.

I have used this stance since then and everyone in the league raise their eye brows but I have seen many of them trying it as I rarely miss doing this and it is very steady at distance under pressure.

If it feels right it generally is as you can get past the negative thoughts.

[Shockerz]

I guess we're all different Terry.

When I started playing again 4 years ago I tried standard cues and they were ok but after seeing a coach it seemed clear I would personally be more comfortable with a 5" cue, yea I could have made adjustments but this was the easier option and it certainly works (apart from normal ups and downs) and feels right.

I also use the mini butt often so I can reach past the blue comfortably.

I saw Jimmy White use a half butt and rest the cue on it in a normal snooker stance instead of the usual stance taken when using a rest and he used to pot ok with it.

I have used this stance since then and everyone in the league raise their eye brows but I have seen many of them trying it as I rarely miss doing this and it is very steady at distance under pressure.

If it feels right it generally is as you can get past the negative thoughts.

That was meant to be a 59" cue not a 5" one, thought i'd better answer that or you'll all be asking for photos!

[vmax4steve]

So j6 is six foot four and uses a 57 which he says is right, and his 61 was wrong despite knocking in tons with it; so by that logic a player who's five foot nine and seven inches shorter than j6 should therefore be using a 53 inch cue or even shorter by adopting j6's technique.

Hands up how many on this forum of around that height would be able to do that.

[Leo]

So j6 is six foot four and uses a 57 which he says is right, and his 61 was wrong despite knocking in tons with it; so by that logic a player who's five foot nine and seven inches shorter than j6 should therefore be using a 53 inch cue or even shorter by adopting j6's technique.

Hands up how many on this forum of around that height would be able to do that.

At the end of the day anyone who's 6ft4 and uses a 57" is doing it either for publicity or they can't afford a longer cue. It scientifically defines physics

[j6uk]

So j6 is six foot four and uses a 57 which he says is right, and his 61 was wrong despite knocking in tons with it; so by that logic a player who's five foot nine and seven inches shorter than j6 should therefore be using a 53 inch cue or even shorter by adopting j6's technique.

Hands up how many on this forum of around that height would be able to do that.

iv said on a number of times that a cue 58 or just over woul be the right size for me though i know i would be holdong the cue at 57 most of the time.
whats my technique btw vmax?

At the end of the day anyone who's 6ft4 and uses a 57" is doing it either for publicity or they can't afford a longer cue. It scientifically defines physics

or maybe they like the cue?

[Ramon]

He does but holds it around 2-3" in most the time.

Yep ,, John Higgins does the same !!

[Sidd]

All right guys, here is my conclusion. So listen closely. I have read all the above discussion. I personally believe both groups are right. There are two schools of thought and both are right. Its more of a 9 for me and 6 for you situation. I have decided to go with a 60 inches cue. Will test it and might cut it down to 59 if the need be. My detailed synopsis is as under, please read carefully for this is how I have concluded:

I used to play with a cue that was for like 60 pounds. It was a Riley. It was so light that I had to add some weight in the butt end. Anyway, I made my highest 67 with it and two 50ies with it. These are the days when I knew nothing about technique. I just loved the game watched professional matches on video tape and then youtube later in the years.. went in picked it up and played. I had no idea what is the grip, elbow, stance, backswing, pause, nothing really. I have always had a natural back pause so maybe that helped. However, my game wasn't consistent so I came to this forum back in 2008-09 and have invested around 5 years in learning technique and trying to improve my game. Have scored two more 50ies and many 40ies but not a single 60. My 67 is still unbeaten.

I wondered a lot and experimented a lot. But today as I write this I am so happy that thanks to honest generous people like Terry, Vmax, J6UK and other fellows, I have the confidence that in terms of technique I know a lot now.

Above all, I have got the GRIP over the GRIP finally... phewwwww! Thanks to all who have contributed. Terry, Vmax, Neil Maxman (youtube) and Nic Barrow to name a few. Terry examined my video and instructed me a few adjustments.

Getting to the main topic now!

I had to note my flaws and then adjust accordingly. My flaw was a hunched stance for being tall and fat guy. Terry told me how to let the armpit down and lie at the table. I had to do that by switching to boxers a bit and straightening my bridge arm like Judd and that did it... Now this is how I play and feel comfy too. Took me time but did it. Also there are a moving of grip hand towards inside the body on delivery and hence imparting unintentional left hand side (I ma a lefty). I corrected it with up and down the spots many many times and still saw that it was happening on medium to high power shots and not on slow shots.... I kept wondering and finally figured out why.......!!!!!!!! This reason has made me go for a 60 inches.

Guys- the above discussion is important but my conclusion is we are all different. Top players normally have a 58 but some have a 59 too right. They don't go for lengthier cues because they are pros and can afford 6 hours a day solo 6 days a week kind of a life style and have enough time to do that. For me, I am 38 already with office and home and all I go to the club 3-4 days a week for about 3-5 hours. Cant do solo always all tables are booked. Well forget that even. Damn... back to the topic.

Why I could impart no side on low power shots and imparted side on medium and high power shots and this was also my reason for missing power long shots (I can still take long shots which are low power or roll shots and be nicely on the black, which many can't control but struggle with power stuns) the reason was pre-mature elbow drop and hence bringing shoulder in to the shot. I am not imparting side on slow shots due to smaller back swing but on high power shots due to larger back swing I am dropping elbow and hence moving on shot. While that might also be connected to twisting of the grip hand yet this is an indicator.

I took a foot ruler to the club yesterday and measured some things. With in my current cue 57 and three quarters or say 58 inches long .. however when I went down with a straight bridge arm that I do to bring my arm pit down to the table and lay flat- I measured the cue from bridge to tip and it was hardly 6-7 inches and I had my grip hand on the very butt end and another thing was that it was forward of vertical. Now when I play my shot like this my elbow is destined to drop before impact as my grip hand is already forward of vertical and the grip hand can't hit the chest without having the elbow drop considerably.

So I measured the distance between grip and bridge and then made a stance for a power shot like normal and noticed it was like 11 1/2 inches. Then I also measured from grip to butt end it was only half an inch. I added all these three and the end result was 61 inches. I measured roughly however I came to the conclusion that in order to have the following:

- 10-11 inches from V to tip
- half inch being grip hand
- having grip arm vertical

I should either use a 60 inches cue or maybe even 59 inches would do good. Or else, keep practicing and adjusting on the shorter cue until I find my comfort, which I can't afford and hence getting a 59-60 inches cue. With a 60 inches cue I will be able to achieve the following with full comfort and ease:

1. Straight bridge arm so that my arm pit is down at the table and hence I am fully down on shot without a hunch.
2. Grip hand vertical at address and hence no elbow before impact of tip to CB
3. 11 inches in front of me for sighting
4. No thinking about follow through and having a following where elbow drops after impact
5. My stance can be comfortable without having to adjust body position and distance from the table to allow me to place the tip as near to the CB as possible at address.

Hence I am getting a 60 inches cue .. the Hunt is on... I am determined !!!