getting through the ball

[Snookclops]

There is another element within the world of physics we are forgetting.

For the fraction of a second the ball is in contact with the ball, if the cue is accelerating then the ball is briefly pushed by the cue. If decelerating the ball theoretically has a shorter contact time.

Hitting a golf ball isn't the ball being "hit". The accelRation to the follow through compresses the ball and if the grip is light, the ball stays in contact for longer and springs off the club from its compressed state.

thoughts?

[Ronnington]

Found this from a previous thread on here:

http://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/boa...e-Action/page2

Great read

[Philthepockets]

There is another element within the world of physics we are forgetting.

For the fraction of a second the ball is in contact with the ball, if the cue is accelerating then the ball is briefly pushed by the cue. If decelerating the ball theoretically has a shorter contact time.

Hitting a golf ball isn't the ball being "hit". The accelRation to the follow through compresses the ball and if the grip is light, the ball stays in contact for longer and springs off the club from its compressed state.

thoughts?

The tip is in contact for approx 1/1000th of a second which means the CB is long gone, the only physics that matter are speed, mass and contact point. The lower the point of contact the higher mass of a heavier cue and the speed at which it is struck the more torque applied. Once this is understood it becomes clear why players with all kinds of techniques can get equal reactions from the cue ball, simply because none of it matters in the end. From the cue action antics of Alex Higgins to the machine like action of Murphy if they both hit the ball at the same point at the same speed with the same mass they will get the same reaction.
Anything else related to feel timing etc is simply a matter of how that player generates teh speed and how accurate they strike the cue ball.
Simple experiment for all you players out there. Play a series of deep screw shots the way you normally do, assuming you play like most of us and look at the object ball last note your results. Now play the same series of shots and look at the cue ball last and watch your tip hit the ball, report back.

[golferson123]

The tip is in contact for approx 1/1000th of a second which means the CB is long gone, the only physics that matter are speed, mass and contact point. The lower the point of contact the higher mass of a heavier cue and the speed at which it is struck the more torque applied. Once this is understood it becomes clear why players with all kinds of techniques can get equal reactions from the cue ball, simply because none of it matters in the end. From the cue action antics of Alex Higgins to the machine like action of Murphy if they both hit the ball at the same point at the same speed with the same mass they will get the same reaction.
Anything else related to feel timing etc is simply a matter of how that player generates teh speed and how accurate they strike the cue ball.
Simple experiment for all you players out there. Play a series of deep screw shots the way you normally do, assuming you play like most of us and look at the object ball last note your results. Now play the same series of shots and look at the cue ball last and watch your tip hit the ball, report back.

( if they both hit the ball at the same point at the same speed with the same mass they will get the same reaction).about the silliest thing i have ever heard

[barrywhite]

Well , in that case , everyone would be able to make a scrwback shot , is'nt it ??
you obviously have too much experience in snooker .

Exactly, if you don't try and cue through the ball you will definitely just punch the bottom of it with bad timing and lose screwback pace. Timing comes from a sweet stroke through the ball, so that the cue ends a good 12-18'' past the initial position of the CB. Contact time, yeah that video shows some player, but no me. I know I'm gripping the ball on a slow screw through the ball and I can feel the grip last longer. Contact time increases on slow drag shots as well. We can feel the ball on the tip more.

[barrywhite]

( if they both hit the ball at the same point at the same speed with the same mass they will get the same reaction).about the silliest thing i have ever heard

Exactly, and the muppet hasn't even included chalk as a variable in his model; see the difference in spin you get between Pioneer and Masters proving that grip is very important! Too many assumptions with just a few variables. So if a club player applies the same force to the CB that Judd does with his Parris/Elk/Chalk but using a £10 club cue with a rock tip (same size as Judd's and Pioneer chalk, yeah, they'll get the same screw back won't they, that's all there is to it! Sure the club player will. :biggrin-new:He's forgotten tip size, rear or fwd weighted cue, full versus light grip, timing (!) so many variables I can think of. :biggrin-new:

As for the lack of acceleration, what a load of tosh, folk do accelerate through the ball and everyone accelerates a cue, they have to. They take the cue back, pause, then deliver the cue. At the pause (no matter how short), the cue is momentarilly stationary, moving zero m/sec! Frrom that point players have to accelerate the cue unless they've got the yips and play no shot! LOL Very few people can deliver the cue at constant velocity, it's an art form that has to be learned. Most can accelerate the cue, some decelerate a lot but not a lot can deliver with precise, even velocity because it's difficult to accelerate the cue from zero to a particular velocity and then maintain that velocity until impact. Snooker is a bit more complex that physics for kids. LOL

[Snookclops]

This **** needs to be tested properly. The same cue, same speed of strike (for example, 20cm/s) but one with a consstant 20cm/s and one with a gradual acceleration through ball, but still 20cm/s at impact. It could be done.

[Philthepockets]

This **** needs to be tested properly. The same cue, same speed of strike (for example, 20cm/s) but one with a consstant 20cm/s and one with a gradual acceleration through ball, but still 20cm/s at impact. It could be done.

It has been by by David G. Alciatore, PhD, PE not some flat earth internet trolls.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/techn...ew/TP_A-30.pdf

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...p.html#contact

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...ml#compression

http://billiards.colostate.edu/techn...ew/TP_A-12.pdf

http://billiards.colostate.edu/techn...new/TP_A-9.pdf

http://billiards.colostate.edu/techn...ew/TP_A-10.pdf

[barrywhite]

This **** needs to be tested properly. The same cue, same speed of strike (for example, 20cm/s) but one with a consstant 20cm/s and one with a gradual acceleration through ball, but still 20cm/s at impact. It could be done.

Yeah, and it needs to be tested with good players, not joe bloggs off the street. Because it's the best technique we practice to achieve to get superior results. I've seen players pump the bottom of a cue ball so hard, you'd think they're trying to stun round the table twice. And they still can't get the same screw as I do from going through the CB. It's not just the force, it's the type of force and the way it is delivered. There are probably a hundred variables in a proper model of CB dynamics. I've just asked my mrs who has a ph.d. in Physics amongst other degrees and she says that a model describing the motion of the CB using F=MA would be inaccurate in real world conditions.

But it would be wrong to model constant velocity given that from zero there is acceleration to a constant velocity (if a player can play that way).

I wonder what qualifications in physics this joker has?

[itsnoteasy]

( if they both hit the ball at the same point at the same speed with the same mass they will get the same reaction).about the silliest thing i have ever heard

Could you explain this Golferson, I don't understand why you think it's wrong, if two shots are played exactly the same, why would they not produce the same reaction. If different players get different reactions, its safe to say they are doing different things is it not.

[Philthepockets]

I've seen players pump the bottom of a cue ball so hard, you'd think they're trying to stun round the table twice. ?

No you haven't, they did not hit he ball where you or they think they did.

I have shown scientific evidence in the form of submitted papers by a Phd and your rebuttal has been some anecdotal meanderings about Trump and the word " Bollocks"
Very good. If drawing the ball is your only measure it's not that hard to draw the ball a table length in the right conditions, hell I can get back to the balk line on a club table.

[Philthepockets]

( if they both hit the ball at the same point at the same speed with the same mass they will get the same reaction).about the silliest thing i have ever heard

"Silliest thing I have ever heard" This is your evidence?
Hmmm

[throtts]

No you haven't, they did not hit he ball where you or they think they did.

Movement or a tight grip / cue arm has not hit the CB at 6 o'clock. Follow through should happen on all shots.

[Philthepockets]

Movement or a tight grip / cue arm has not hit the CB at 6 o'clock. Follow through should happen on all shots.

Yes that is what happens with many players on a power shot, including some pro players and this is the difference in how much reaction they get, tip shape and size also play a part in where the contact point is on the CB, angle of attack can some what change the equation and this is the reason you cannot use players as proof of the physics, you can't break the laws of physics as some on here seem to think. As a minor point the follow through means nothing, the CB is long gone it is just a mechanism for keeping the arm relaxed and generating speed, if you hit the CB at 30mph without follow through you would get the same reaction, physics is physics.

[cally]

You couldn't possibly hit the ball that hard without follow through. without decelerating the cue tremendously and not change how the ball reacts. The reason you need to hit through the ball and follow through is about fluency of the stroke. Really, The follow through is just continuing the momentum of the complete stroke.. That's what's important.