I'm no coach but....

[itsnoteasy]

Very very few people will have hand eye coordination outside the range not to be able to play snooker, ( it can be improved there are many techniques for this, children improve it vastly in their first years of life ,along with brain function ,spatial awareness etc,that's why it's easier to learn snooker as a youngster ) so I don't believe it's mostly down to that, delivering a cue straight is so much more than hand eye coordination. Look at Pottrs video, now he must have good coordination to get to his standard but when he stood wrong he missed. There are basics to get you going but within those there are many many little flaws that can stop you moving on and these are the things that are the hardest to fix and spot,not the over all fundamentals. Can a coach spot and fix these, I'm not sure ,spot them probably but there is only one person who can fix them, that's the hard part.

[throtts]

Confidence is key also. So many players have missed the shot even before they have dropped down, they have poor self belief. When there is a lack of confidence then all flaws come through, specially head movement.

[vmax4steve]

delivering a cue straight is so much more than hand eye coordination. Look at Pottrs video, now he must have good coordination to get to his standard but when he stood wrong he missed.

He also potted a good few when changing his stance.

You need to alter your stance because the table gets in the way some of the time; it's not about standing wrong, it's about not looking at the target when placing your feet, not letting your eyes guide you into position, even when you have to half lie on the table.
You see pros on the tv picking at a bit of fluff on the cloth that's catching their eye, removing it before taking their stance, even that can make you place yourself on the wrong line.

You have posted yourself that when you are looking at the contact point on the object ball you don't miss, why argue against that ?

My position is that if you look at the correct target you will put yourself on the line of aim, once down in your stance it will look and feel correct, that cuts down on anxiety, which in turn will alleviate head and body movement as well as cueing across the ball, and if you keep your eye on the target when delivering the cue you will hit what you're looking at.

Now there are issues surounding elbow drop before the strike for those who do not have their elbow directly on the line of aim, that can be cured with extra cue length or altered bridge length and address position, and a good coach should see that and tell you how to stop it, but the rest is all down to sighting and keeping still on the stroke, the basic fundamentals; after that it's all about practise.

[itsnoteasy]

Confidence is key also. So many players have missed the shot even before they have dropped down, they have poor self belief. When there is a lack of confidence then all flaws come through, specially head movement.

Spot on as usual Throtts, if there is one difference I have noticed between me and a good player is they expect it to go in, I'm just hoping.

[itsnoteasy]

I'm not arguing against it Vmax,I agree with you ,you must look at the object ball it's the only way, and your eyes are very very important guiding you down onto the line, I just don't think it's the only thing if you know what I mean,I'm as accurate with my eyes shut as I am with them open so this proves it to me and tells me there are many other things that go wrong when I miss.
There are fundamentals to do but they are hard to explain to someone, even just saying keep the grip lose, well my lose will be different to your lose to anyone else's definition, that's what I'm trying to explain when I say only you can fix it, you have been given the explanation, keep it lose ,but only you can find what that means in your own game, if that makes sense.

[Ramon]

He also potted a good few when changing his stance.

You need to alter your stance because the table gets in the way some of the time; it's not about standing wrong, it's about not looking at the target when placing your feet, not letting your eyes guide you into position, even when you have to half lie on the table.
You see pros on the tv picking at a bit of fluff on the cloth that's catching their eye, removing it before taking their stance, even that can make you place yourself on the wrong line.

You have posted yourself that when you are looking at the contact point on the object ball you don't miss, why argue against that ?

My position is that if you look at the correct target you will put yourself on the line of aim, once down in your stance it will look and feel correct, that cuts down on anxiety, which in turn will alleviate head and body movement as well as cueing across the ball, and if you keep your eye on the target when delivering the cue you will hit what you're looking at.

Now there are issues surounding elbow drop before the strike for those who do not have their elbow directly on the line of aim, that can be cured with extra cue length or altered bridge length and address position, and a good coach should see that and tell you how to stop it, but the rest is all down to sighting and keeping still on the stroke, the basic fundamentals; after that it's all about practise.

you're looking at the OB with ur eyes Vmax . I do'nt see a A little head or body movement as a problem. (especially regarding experienced players).
not saying i do'nt agree with you , But I think thr re many players (pro or top amateur) who can deal with a bad habit and yet , they can play very well.
I think S Lee was the one who's cue action was 100 percent by the text book ?

[j6uk]

lee's head was as still as a lake in the wilderness, probibly didn't get it in the neck from her indoors. may do now though

[badgermeat]

Very interesting thread, plenty of food for thought

[vmax4steve]

I'm not arguing against it Vmax,I agree with you ,you must look at the object ball it's the only way, and your eyes are very very important guiding you down onto the line, I just don't think it's the only thing if you know what I mean,I'm as accurate with my eyes shut as I am with them open so this proves it to me and tells me there are many other things that go wrong when I miss.
There are fundamentals to do but they are hard to explain to someone, even just saying keep the grip lose, well my lose will be different to your lose to anyone else's definition, that's what I'm trying to explain when I say only you can fix it, you have been given the explanation, keep it lose ,but only you can find what that means in your own game, if that makes sense.

I agree wholeheartedly, once the fundamentals have been explained and proven, and you only have to watch a pro for five minutes to see them proven, it's down to the individual. As for missing, the main reason players miss balls is down to taking their eyes off the contact point on the object ball either before placing their feet for the stance, and/or again on the strike

you're looking at the OB with ur eyes Vmax . I do'nt see a A little head or body movement as a problem.

It's the focus and fixation of the eyes on the target that vastly improves your chances of getting on the line of aim in the first place, nonchalantly looking in the direction of the object ball, getting down and then looking for the contact point for the pot leads to cueing across the ball as your brain realises you're not on the right line and steers the cue in the direction of the contact point you find after you're down, shooting from the wrong line; the contact point must be found and focussed on before the feet are placed for the stance, not afterwards.

If you're down in your stance on the correct line, then eyes focussed on the contact point of the object ball will vastly improve your chances of keeping your head still while executing the stroke.

It's only for a split second that it occurs on the strike, for as soon as you let the cue go your brain will want to receive information that all balls are going where you want them to and naturally your brain tells your eyes to seek the info it needs by looking up at the peripheral picture, leaving the target object ball and seeking the target pocket and the target cue ball position. This looking up can easily mean the head moves as well, and if too soon (before the strike) then the movement of the head will also mean slight body movement that moves the cue off line as well.

You have to minimise the risk of your hand following your eye to those other two targets by focussing only on the one that matters on the actual delivery stroke, especially important when playing cannons and splitting the pack.

It all sounds very complicated but all you have to remember is, look to see the peripheral picture and focus on the correct target.

[j6uk]

I agree wholeheartedly, once the fundamentals have been explained and proven, and you only have to watch a pro for five minutes to see them proven, it's down to the individual. As for missing, the main reason players miss balls is down to taking their eyes off the contact point on the object ball either before placing their feet for the stance, and/or again on the strike

for me its more down to cueing that players miss. you can do everything textbook but if that cue isn't coming back and being delivered properly then, you can miss anything



-

[Byrom]

I think u both right as I have seen guys with word class technique who cant make 50..

Personally I don't just focus on the contact spot I have the line of the path of the object ball worked out first too in my peripheral vision. Line or lines to the pocket from the pocket through the ob - its more natural sometimes for me just to do that as focusing on a contact point takes a lot of effort and you cant see the contact point on a quarter ball and if you don't marry the two things eg looking at the line of the shot and then picking out the contact point you are in fact just guessing.

For me its a game of lines. I experiment of course but keep coming back to same thing.

I do think the important thing for me is getting my timing right - so yep technique is more the thing but some player do take there eyes off the line of the shot or the contact point and some do just misjudge the angles or have bad technique.

Its all practice - and this game never truly mastered. It really is a frustrating thing.
What gets me is some coaches say do this and do that but name me two player who are identical in technique? I think a player for the most part must find there own way and make the best of what you got - though certain things help for sure. Right practice/feet position, stance, setting targets, solid fundamentals, practice, routines, practice, mindset, practice. match-play, practice, great cue, practice and there are great players - not just pro coaches that can help you get there. Possible now with all the info out there in this day and age to do it for yourself too as I know dozens of ton men who never had a single lesson.

Pro's and the really great players all have something in common though - they are all consistent in their own style - their pre shot routine is pretty much robotic, even if some look more fluid than others. Sadly we don't all live on the table - depends on how good you want to get and how much time you dedicate to getting there really.

All good fun

[vmax4steve]

for me its more down to cueing that players miss. you can do everything textbook but if that cue isn't coming back and being delivered properly then, you can miss anything

For me textbook means straight cueing, and focussing on the target helps enourmously with this because your hand follows your eye, so if you're not focussing on the correct target your hand will be guided there, and you can miss anything.
Something I pointed out in another thread where a coach was shown telling a student exactly where he needed to hold the cue for an alleged correct bridge length and then demonstarted by missing a simple yellow with no explanation why he missed.
Took his eye off the ball is my guess, seeing that everything else was allegedly perfect, but he should have said so, he should have made certain from the start that this was an absolute basic principle that must be adhered to at all times.

Some coaches I fear would rather take months tinkering with a players action for £20 an hour than simply get them to look at the object ball.

[ace man]

...as I have seen guys with word class technique who cant make 50..

What? That's not world class technique then. Far from it. Maybe aestetically it might look good.
But we're talking snooker, not figure skating. You don't get points for artistic impression.

[j6uk]

taking your eye off the ball happens from time to time, and for many a player it could be due more to concentration, though they may still pot the ball off the jaw but theyll pot it because they have worked on a well honed cue action. developing a good cue action takes time and some, even then cueing across the ball is always ready to creep in on a bad day.
if only it was as easy to think that your hand follows your eyes so, jobs a goodun. bit more to it than that to try to reach the outer realms of being a cueist




-

[itsnoteasy]

For me textbook means straight cueing, and focussing on the target helps enourmously with this because your hand follows your eye, so if you're not focussing on the correct target your hand will be guided there, and you can miss anything.
Something I pointed out in another thread where a coach was shown telling a student exactly where he needed to hold the cue for an alleged correct bridge length and then demonstarted by missing a simple yellow with no explanation why he missed.
Took his eye off the ball is my guess, seeing that everything else was allegedly perfect, but he should have said so, he should have made certain from the start that this was an absolute basic principle that must be adhered to at all times.

Some coaches I fear would rather take months tinkering with a players action for £20 an hour than simply get them to look at the object ball.

For me there are many things that can stop you cueing straight, eyes off the object ball is just one of them.
Feet, head, chest, grip ,bridge,tension, movement, shoulder , elbow, ballance,alignment to list just a few that can make you cue across the White, if any one of these are wrong you are making it hard for yourself, whether you look at the contact point or not.