Cueing at the Speed of Sound

[Cannonball]

Players who are always at the table will get kicks. Regardless, i disagree with you about how many he gets - he seems to get fewer than most to me.

Yep, it's to do with sweeter timing. Watch him on the Ronnie show (below) doing his routines, he times the stroke really well. Of course, there's the Dell Hill elbow drop involved which helps but good timing is good timing; something to work on not just for avoiding kicks.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/video/ro...142622436.html

[Cannonball]

Aramith have several grades of ball - premieres, premium (?) and super aramith pro, in american pool terminology. They most certainly aren't all the same compound. You only have to look at how chipped the cheaper balls get to know that, whereas the higher grade super aramith pros are pretty indestructible.

As ever, AZB has chapter and verse on all things billiards related and there have been many good threads on the history of billiard ball evolution over the years. The differences between them are still on aramith's website, or were last time i checked.

And did you know they routinely recycle imperfect balls? Crack open one of the cheaper sets and you may find a fully formed smaller ball inside, complete with patterns and number. True story.

Your ignorance is astounding. Every Aramith ball is made from phenolic resin, every single one. Pro cup pool/snooker simply indicates a deeper, more vivid colouring but they're PR all the same. Premieres are simply 128g TCs, with less PR packed into each mould. TCs are 142g PR balls. Super Crystallate Pro Cup are TCs with more vivid colouring. 1G balls are just weighed balls to within +/- 0.5g of the mean. 1G Pro Cup are the same as before but with more colouring. Even the balls they make for Brunswick are PR. Yes, Premiere's won't last as long as TCs but they only cost a 1/3 of the price. Premieres will still last longer than cheap polyester balls. But every table should have TCs or above for me.

As for AZB, don't let me keep you!

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Your ignorance is astounding. Every Aramith ball is made from phenolic resin, every single one. Pro cup pool/snooker simply indicates a deeper, more vivid colouring but they're PR all the same. Premieres are simply 128g TCs, with less PR packed into each mould. TCs are 142g PR balls. Super Crystallate Pro Cup are TCs with more vivid colouring. 1G balls are just weighed balls to within +/- 0.5g of the mean. 1G Pro Cup are the same as before but with more colouring. Even the balls they make for Brunswick are PR. Yes, Premiere's won't last as long as TCs but they only cost a 1/3 of the price. Premieres will still last longer than cheap polyester balls. But every table should have TCs or above for me.

As for AZB, don't let me keep you!

Lol. Anything you say, petal.

[ADR147]

Time to drop this one I think folks. Nothing constructive happening from here!

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Time to drop this one I think folks. Nothing constructive happening from here!

Come on - i want to hear how much weight a nice vivid pink color will add to the 4 ball of a particularly fetching set of aramith duramiths. I'm sure bluster has a spectophotometer fired up, a pair of scales in each hand, and Stephen hawking's phone number on speed dial.

Let's go, Chump!

[ADR147]

Well as long as you both remember I have a ban button and I am not afraid to use it

[vmax4steve]

Well as long as you both remember I have a ban button and I am not afraid to use it

Ban for what reason, this is a healthy debate, apart from MBBarrywhiteCannoball and his usual chest puffing bluster, or are you worried that your sales of balls will be hit.

I for one would like to know why there are different grades of phenolic resin, why are the premiers lighter, are they hollow inside. Why does a set of TC's kick far more than the super crystalate badged penolic resin balls ? I don't know about pool balls and the way they react on napless cloths would be different to a napped cloth on a snooker table, less resistance in the cloth so therefore less kicks would be my answer.
The super fine cloths and table heaters have been introduced to try and stop these kicks and bad contacts, and when everythings rosy it's not too bad, but as soon as there's a little moisture in the air the conditions become laughable with the amount of bad contacts there are.

There are many players using these balls in their clubs who miss an awful lot of balls due to bad contacts and probably are unaware of it. Far too many pots are missed on the thick side these days, and Nic Barrow alluded to it when his potting machine showed that the contact point for the pot was a little thicker in reality than what the eye sees.
I believe that this could be a very good reason why certain players form dipped dramatically when these balls were introduced, the cleaner contact of the SC's was replaced by the duller contact of the PR's, more friction between the balls, thicker contact was the outcome and those with the subconscious memory of the angles gained from learning with SC's couldn't fathom the thicker contact of the new PR's.

I for one tend to miss to the near jaw these days, this could be that the table I play on is so tight that I'm afraid of the far jaw and seek the centre of the pocket thus flirting with the near jaw, but it could also be that my angle memory is that of the SC's and not the PR's. I don't know for certain but when these PR's were first introduced in snooker clubs in the late 80's they were bloody awful and as the rules of snooker stated at the time that SC balls had to be used they actually cheated us all by labelling and selling a more expensive set as SC's when they were in fact made of PR, and they're still doing it.

Our league bought a set for use in inter town matches and finals and they were so different to the original SC's that we stopped using them due to complaints. I looked at the small print on the box and sure enough it stated made from PR. When I bought my set a couple of years ago from a seller on ebay I thought I was getting an original set of SC's as this small print was no longer on the box, but it's now printed on a leaflet that comes with the balls inside the box, that leaflet was missing from the set I bought, but as soon as I played my first shot with them I knew, that duller click was a dead giveaway, but they are better than our clubs set of TC's which are absolutely terrible.
When a set of originals came up for sale I snapped them up, best £27 I've ever spent, except when I was in Amsterdam one time

BTW Biggie, I didn't know you were banned, can't fathom why, my apologies.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Ban for what reason, this is a healthy debate, apart from MBBarrywhiteCannoball and his usual chest puffing bluster, or are you worried that your sales of balls will be hit.

I for one would like to know why there are different grades of phenolic resin, why are the premiers lighter, are they hollow inside. Why does a set of TC's kick far more than the super crystalate badged penolic resin balls ? I don't know about pool balls and the way they react on napless cloths would be different to a napped cloth on a snooker table, less resistance in the cloth so therefore less kicks would be my answer.
The super fine cloths and table heaters have been introduced to try and stop these kicks and bad contacts, and when everythings rosy it's not too bad, but as soon as there's a little moisture in the air the conditions become laughable with the amount of bad contacts there are.

There are many players using these balls in their clubs who miss an awful lot of balls due to bad contacts and probably are unaware of it. Far too many pots are missed on the thick side these days, and Nic Barrow alluded to it when his potting machine showed that the contact point for the pot was a little thicker in reality than what the eye sees.
I believe that this could be a very good reason why certain players form dipped dramatically when these balls were introduced, the cleaner contact of the SC's was replaced by the duller contact of the PR's, more friction between the balls, thicker contact was the outcome and those with the subconscious memory of the angles gained from learning with SC's couldn't fathom the thicker contact of the new PR's.

I for one tend to miss to the near jaw these days, this could be that the table I play on is so tight that I'm afraid of the far jaw and seek the centre of the pocket thus flirting with the near jaw, but it could also be that my angle memory is that of the SC's and not the PR's. I don't know for certain but when these PR's were first introduced in snooker clubs in the late 80's they were bloody awful and as the rules of snooker stated at the time that SC balls had to be used they actually cheated us all by labelling and selling a more expensive set as SC's when they were in fact made of PR, and they're still doing it.

Our league bought a set for use in inter town matches and finals and they were so different to the original SC's that we stopped using them due to complaints. I looked at the small print on the box and sure enough it stated made from PR. When I bought my set a couple of years ago from a seller on ebay I thought I was getting an original set of SC's as this small print was no longer on the box, but it's now printed on a leaflet that comes with the balls inside the box, that leaflet was missing from the set I bought, but as soon as I played my first shot with them I knew, that duller click was a dead giveaway, but they are better than our clubs set of TC's which are absolutely terrible.
When a set of originals came up for sale I snapped them up, best £27 I've ever spent, except when I was in Amsterdam one time

BTW Biggie, I didn't know you were banned, can't fathom why, my apologies.

Lol.

Re the nic barrow thing - the world of pocket billiards has known about this from the beginning of the game, and it's called Collison Induced Throw (as opposed to spin induced throw, or, as cackhandedly blustered by commentators "using side to turn the red over", whatever the hell that means.)

Anyway, the odds of a good player's game going to pot because a newly introduced ball throws a little differently is slim to none. Players adapt and adjust subconsciously. Personally, I've found pro cup balls require better cueing, given they are heavier than cheaper varieties, and think this would provide a greater obstacle than slightly more throw.

As to whether heavier balls throw more than lighter ones, i would guess they do, but that is one for he who must not be named...

[Cannonball]

Ban for what reason, this is a healthy debate, apart from MBBarrywhiteCannoball and his usual chest puffing bluster, or are you worried that your sales of balls will be hit.

I for one would like to know why there are different grades of phenolic resin, why are the premiers lighter, are they hollow inside. Why does a set of TC's kick far more than the super crystalate badged penolic resin balls ? I don't know about pool balls and the way they react on napless cloths would be different to a napped cloth on a snooker table, less resistance in the cloth so therefore less kicks would be my answer.
The super fine cloths and table heaters have been introduced to try and stop these kicks and bad contacts, and when everythings rosy it's not too bad, but as soon as there's a little moisture in the air the conditions become laughable with the amount of bad contacts there are.

There are many players using these balls in their clubs who miss an awful lot of balls due to bad contacts and probably are unaware of it. Far too many pots are missed on the thick side these days, and Nic Barrow alluded to it when his potting machine showed that the contact point for the pot was a little thicker in reality than what the eye sees.
I believe that this could be a very good reason why certain players form dipped dramatically when these balls were introduced, the cleaner contact of the SC's was replaced by the duller contact of the PR's, more friction between the balls, thicker contact was the outcome and those with the subconscious memory of the angles gained from learning with SC's couldn't fathom the thicker contact of the new PR's.

I for one tend to miss to the near jaw these days, this could be that the table I play on is so tight that I'm afraid of the far jaw and seek the centre of the pocket thus flirting with the near jaw, but it could also be that my angle memory is that of the SC's and not the PR's. I don't know for certain but when these PR's were first introduced in snooker clubs in the late 80's they were bloody awful and as the rules of snooker stated at the time that SC balls had to be used they actually cheated us all by labelling and selling a more expensive set as SC's when they were in fact made of PR, and they're still doing it.

Our league bought a set for use in inter town matches and finals and they were so different to the original SC's that we stopped using them due to complaints. I looked at the small print on the box and sure enough it stated made from PR. When I bought my set a couple of years ago from a seller on ebay I thought I was getting an original set of SC's as this small print was no longer on the box, but it's now printed on a leaflet that comes with the balls inside the box, that leaflet was missing from the set I bought, but as soon as I played my first shot with them I knew, that duller click was a dead giveaway, but they are better than our clubs set of TC's which are absolutely terrible.
When a set of originals came up for sale I snapped them up, best £27 I've ever spent, except when I was in Amsterdam one time

BTW Biggie, I didn't know you were banned, can't fathom why, my apologies.

Afternoon mate. Thanks for your reply.

There aren't different grades of PR to my knowledge, just different amounts of PR packed into the moulds leading to different densities and thus weight. Now the modern SC made from PR has a deeper, more vivid colour than a TC and they're badged Pro Cup in N. America. If the pigment affects the amount of kicks compared to a TC, maybe? I couldn't say as I don't play with modern SCs as the high price means that upgrading to 1Gs is the choice. So a Premiere ball (128) is less dense than a TC/SC (142). But the TC/SC/1g all have the same density. Because they are denser, they wear better, and stay on the surface better, jump less.

Aramith say that they use PR because it is the material closest to the specification of ivory balls. Nothing comes closer apparently.

Slide: why do TCs slide more than old SCs? The answer lies in the material but also in the condition of the ball. I find that the CB slides a little on contact and I lose a smidge of the true angle I cued. Analgous to a bit of understeer.

I've brought some old SCs home and I'm going to investigate them a bit and come back. I'm now sitting with some TCs/1Gs and old SCs in front of me; this shouldn't be happening! :biggrin-new:

[itsnoteasy]

Sorry for being a bit thick, but aren't PR balls made in a glass mould then that's broken off to leave the ball behind, that's then ground and polished. If that's about right, how do you get more PR in the mould to make them heavier?

[Cannonball]

Sorry for being a bit thick, but aren't PR balls made in a glass mould then that's broken off to leave the ball behind, that's then ground and polished. If that's about right, how do you get more PR in the mould to make them heavier?

Compression of the material. But yeah, you're right about the glass moulds. And you ain't thick by a long shot either.

[vmax4steve]

Sorry for being a bit thick, but aren't PR balls made in a glass mould then that's broken off to leave the ball behind, that's then ground and polished. If that's about right, how do you get more PR in the mould to make them heavier?

Saw it on telly in the 80's showing how snooker balls were made. The BBC went to the Super Crystalate factory and showed the liquid resin being poured into empty lightbulbs as they were about the right size, when set the bulbs were broken and the balls placed on a lathe and turned into a perfect sphere and then polished.

I work in a plastics factory, each press has a set amount of raw material, known as a shot, that is the correct amount to make the product. If the press tool is too hot or too cold then you can get shorts, sinking or flash which leaves the end product either short of enough plastic to make it whole, or thinner in places (sinking) or where material has seeped out of the mould (flash).

Phenolic resin, don't use it in the factory as Saluc/Aramith have the patent for it, how exactly this behaves in the press is unknown to me, but if it behaves like most other plastics then I would say that the hotter the tool the denser the material will be as it will be more liquid, meaning that their cheaper balls are made far more quickly as the tool isn't as hot and doesn't need as much cooling time before leaving the press; the hotter the material the longer the cycle of the press, and it depends on any additives that may be in the material to make it stronger, such as glass or metal, and the measurement and mixing of these additives to the raw material would be crucial to how a plastic ball would behave IMO. The old heavy crystalate balls used from the '20's to '73 had powdered bone from the shins of cows added to it.

A little too much or too little could make the density of the ball patchy, hence bad contacts and kicks, and the actual raw material itself could also have these properties, also if the material isn't hard enough then it won't be able to be polished as finely as needed for almost frictionless contacts, hence too much friction leading to bad contacts and kicks, which is my guess with PR as no matter what quality of ball you use the problem is always present.

Also some resins are cold in their liquid state and rely on a chemical reaction to set hard, PR could be such a resin.

[itsnoteasy]

Thanks Vmax ,very interesting, Good post.
Can I ask, is it basically less air bubbles because it's runnier,that's what makes it more or less dense ?( not including adding anything into the PR mix)

[DeanH]

Cueing at the Speed of Sound

I think Saluc use vacuum pressure injection method and not gravity feed.
Seen they mold three balls at a time with thick stems which are then cut and the balls ground and polished off

[ADR147]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU-JgG3aVIM