Wasteing Precious Hours

[Big Splash!]

Most guys that claim they have a great safety game just mean they have not learned the skills to break build and rather than improve that side of the game they stick to playing negative. I think Itsnoteasy hit the nail on the head, it's more about ego and trying to win every game. I've not been fussed either with winning since I returned to the game 5 years ago. My aim was to practice hard with solo, play a few frames learn and enjoy the game. Learning the potting/break building side is far more difficult than safety nudges just to stop your opponent. Do that once your at a decent level playing dangerous players that can clear in one or two visits.

Ideally, we pot em off the table like Ronnie and Hendry but if we can't see a pot, we have to have a safety game, just as Ron has one. You have to fight fire with fire. That doesn't mean spending half your time practicing safety, it only means maybe practicing safety in frames 5-10% of the time. Practicing break building is great but if you play some guys I know, you won't see the long ball pot unless you force a mistake out of em or get them to take on a hard long ball and they miss. Then it's gravy time in the balls if they don't luck again. lol Beat them with negativity first. Then destroy them with positivity.

I know some 30 breakers who ask you for a HC start, which I used to reluctantly give (it's practice not a match!). They hit a 16 break, then tuck you up. Then mess up the black and tuck you up. They defend the start you gave them and make the excuse that they're practicing for matches! 40mins after the first frame, you're wondering why you didn't stay at home and donate your snooker expenses for the day to charity. Rectal cavities; SWERVE!

[jonny66]

I have no problem with roll up safeties, playing the or being in one. Usually easy enough to hit something and it keeps the colours on/near their spots. It's when the colours are all messed up that pees me off, I'm watching my opponent line the black up and half of me wants him to pot it because I know it's going safe if he misses.

[markz]

I have no problem with roll up safeties, playing the or being in one. Usually easy enough to hit something and it keeps the colours on/near their spots. It's when the colours are all messed up that pees me off, I'm watching my opponent line the black up and half of me wants him to pot it because I know it's going safe if he misses.

But have you got confidence in your ability to make a good safety pay off. It's ok saying try and create a better opportunity but you need to be thinking I've earned the error and now I can punish him with 50+ rather than maybe a 16 or 24. It's only my view but the hardest part of game is scoring so why not get that consistent first then bring the safety along with that. Learning is far more important than winning.

[tomwalker147]

But have you got confidence in your ability to make a good safety pay off. It's ok saying try and create a better opportunity but you need to be thinking I've earned the error and now I can punish him with 50+ rather than maybe a 16 or 24. It's only my view but the hardest part of game is scoring so why not get that consistent first then bring the safety along with that. Learning is far more important than winning.

It's easier to teach a potter safety than to teach a safety player potting.

[Tommykiid]

[QUOTEmarkz;907966]But have you got confidence in your ability to make a good safety pay off. It's ok saying try and create a better opportunity but you need to be thinking I've earned the error and now I can punish him with 50+ rather than maybe a 16 or 24. It's only my view but the hardest part of game is scoring so why not get that consistent first then bring the safety along with that. Learning is far more important than winning.

It's easier to teach a potter safety than to teach a safety player potting.[/QUOTE] but is that just a confidence problem with the safety player ??

[Big Splash!]

It's easier to teach a potter safety than to teach a safety player potting.

That's true but not strictly true. Great safety is an art form requiring deeper thinking. I can teach someone to pot em off the lamp shades but I can't teach em to think up a great safety, they need to work out angles, where the balls will land, weigh of shot, side if needed, how the other player will respond, how we respond after they respond, etc! RR taught Ronnie the nuances of great safety and he won this 2nd world title with it. Potting/break-building and safety are yin and yang, not enemies. Each should appear at the appropriate time, as the frame ebbs and flows. Big breaks are nice but frames should be won as well. Snooker is neither about breaks or frame winning at its deepest, it's about expression but breaks and winning frames are the consequence of great expression. I've seen maxi makers crack against 60-breakers when the 60-breakers tuck em up. That's their own fault for not learning safety and escapes. They have neither the brain or patience to learn it properly. And I've seen grinders refuse basic pots, they don't have the patience and intelligence to straighten their cue actions out. The great players at every level can play both defence and attack when they wish to.

[tomwalker147]

That's not strictly true. Great safety is an art form requiring deeper thinking. I can teach someone to pot em off the lamp shades but I can't teach em to think up a great safety, they need to work out angles, where the balls will land, weigh of shot, side if needed, how the other player will respond, how we respond after they respond, etc! RR taught Ronnie the nuances of great safety and he won this 2nd world title with it. Potting/break-building and safety are yin and yang, not enemies. Each should appear at the appropriate time, as the frame ebbs and flows. Big breaks are nice but frames should be won as well. Snooker is neither about breaks or frame winning at its deepest, it's about expression but breaks and winning frames are the consequence of great expression.

OK. I meant more along the lines of...... trying to teach somebody to pot a ball when they struggle to even get the cue ball in baulk is going to be a tricky task. If you're accurate enough to pot balls then you have the technical fundamentals to play a safety shot well.

I appreciate safety is very deep thinking, it's like chess in the sense that you should be thinking about what your safety shot will force your opponent to do next.

[markz]

That's not strictly true. Great safety is an art form requiring deeper thinking. I can teach someone to pot em off the lamp shades but I can't teach em to think up a great safety, they need to work out angles, where the balls will land, weigh of shot, side if needed, how the other player will respond, how we respond after they respond, etc! RR taught Ronnie the nuances of great safety and he won this 2nd world title with it. Potting/break-building and safety are yin and yang, not enemies. Each should appear at the appropriate time, as the frame ebbs and flows. Big breaks are nice but frames should be won as well. Snooker is neither about breaks or frame winning at its deepest, it's about expression but breaks and winning frames are the consequence of great expression.

I'm not on about the professional game or good amateur players I'm thinking of the guys that haven't got the break building skills but as they can play a bit of safety they think it's the same game they see on the tv. Bit like when we are kids pretending we are as good as our football idol, snooker players seem to have the mentality get to 30 break standard and a questionably good safety game and they have made it.

[Big Splash!]

I'm not on about the professional game or good amateur players I'm thinking of the guys that haven't got the break building skills but as they can play a bit of safety they think it's the same game they see on the tv. Bit like when we are kids pretending we are as good as our football idol, snooker players seem to have the mentality get to 30 break standard and a questionably good safety game and they have made it.

Yes, the same fakers are protected by handicaps as well. Some local league snooker can be a joke. I wish it wasn't. Most club players just go for the pots, they tend not to be bothered so much by safety. Once club players who can hit a 30 start playing league, their attitude becomes polluted by handicaps and the desire to win at all costs, the cost being their own standard of snooker. But these folk can be overcome, simply by outplaying them at safety. It's not easy to claw back a frame when they've messed the balls up but it can be done and it's pretty satisfying challenge when it is done because rescuing a frame against the odds is way tougher a test than simply dominating a frame from the get go with a regular player. Let's be fair to the 30 breakers, they're trying to win frames for their team; laudable. It's the 30-breakers who keep clubs going. So we must suffer them and smile at the good they do the game!

[markz]

Yes, the same fakers are protected by handicaps as well. Some local league snooker can be a joke. I wish it wasn't. Most club players just go for the pots, the tend not to be bothered so much by safety. Once club players who can hit a 30 start playing league, their attitude becomes polluted by handicaps and the desire to win at all costs, the cost being their own standard of snooker. But these folk can be overcome, simply by outplaying them at safety. It's not easy to claw back a frame when they've messed the balls up but it can be done and it's pretty satisfying challenge when it is done because rescuing a frame against the odds is way tougher a test than simply dominating a frame from the get go with a regular player.

I agree mate but the OP was about wasting practice time and if your doing the right things your game has to improve so you don't think about falling back on that safety game that will just stop other player scoring, mess the frame up so you stick at a low level player. Never going to be confident playing the game like that.

[itsnoteasy]

Oh Jesus, I've ditched the 30-40 minute framers. You're well out of it mate! I'd rather go for the 1/10 shots and lose a frame than play with them. Dreary. Play, express yourself and enjoy.

@Markz, we have to do both I guess. If your safety game is rubbish and you keep letting your partner have the best balls, a 50 is gonna be harder to make. Players below this level need to do some solo practice, long reds (to start a break) and some break-building exercises, plenty to choose from but the xmas tree is good. The best one for them is to play themselves; mr grinder v. mr potter; they get to various skills from both types of player then.

I checked myself the other week just like that Splasher, I set up long pots( typical of shots I would go for) with reds open around the black and I'm holding the white down that area, it's surprising how many times I punished myself with a half decent break30-50,when I missed the long pot, which at my standard is a fifty ,sixty percent shot, these type of lets ins are very hard to come back from doesn't matter how well you are playing.

Well, I do roll up behind baulk colours when there's nothing on. Other choice would be to go for low percentage long pot into one of black pockets or insane cuts into the middle with no guarantee of position whatsoever. What about those reds down the long rail? Tempted?
If I start playing shots like that frequently, might as well go back to playing 9ball. No thanks, I've had plenty of that in the past.
For me it is all about playing the right shot. Besides, frames tend to go quickly if you keep the table tidy, regardless of safety play.

The alternative isn't to go for a daft pot the alternative is to leave the cue ball on a Cush off a baulk colour so your opponent has a hard safety, not roll up behind a ball, makes the game better for everyone.

[ace man]

The alternative isn't to go for a daft pot the alternative is to leave the cue ball on a Cush off a baulk colour so your opponent has a hard safety, not roll up behind a ball, makes the game better for everyone.

I might do what you described if roll up snooker wouldn't be that difficult to get out from...lots of reds packed together...etc. But then I need to control baulk colour object ball. Might get it wrong and put it on cush. Don't know, depends a lot on score, frame situation...etc.
But ultimately I want to give myself the best chance to break build. Good safety can provide break building opportunity. Like most players I'm dying to get in amongst the balls and pot a few...correction, a lot of them. That's what I aim for. Big breaks. But to get there, one needs to play smart. That's my view on this.
Besides, I've butchered roll ups before. They're not that trivial to play.

[itsnoteasy]

Yes, the same fakers are protected by handicaps as well. Some local league snooker can be a joke. I wish it wasn't. Most club players just go for the pots, they tend not to be bothered so much by safety. Once club players who can hit a 30 start playing league, their attitude becomes polluted by handicaps and the desire to win at all costs, the cost being their own standard of snooker. But these folk can be overcome, simply by outplaying them at safety. It's not easy to claw back a frame when they've messed the balls up but it can be done and it's pretty satisfying challenge when it is done because rescuing a frame against the odds is way tougher a test than simply dominating a frame from the get go with a regular player. Let's be fair to the 30 breakers, they're trying to win frames for their team; laudable. It's the 30-breakers who keep clubs going. So we must suffer them and smile at the good they do the game!

All that is spot on Splasher, it is a challenge to claw back a frame, it's the clawing I can't be arsed with. There should be no handicaps, if he's better than you he (or she) not only deserves to win, they should damn well do it every single frame you play, it's good for you to get spanked, it makes you go off and practice more and try harder. I just can't imagine getting any satisfaction of a win against a good player if he gave me a start or I deliberately messed things up, I would be embarrassed to take the win, each to their own though and I understand winning is all consuming with some, and it's nothing to do with performance, it's just not the way I look at the game or how I have gone about trying to learn the game,

[jonny66]

I agree with ace man. Just because you're not knocking in 50+ doesn't mean you have to disregard safety completely, even if you're playing someone crap. You leave him a red, he misses the black and leaves it safe, maybe you've got nothing on, leave him another red, he misses the pink and it goes safe. Before you know it there's no chance of making any break at all. Play the easy roll up, you maybe get a chance to knock in a 30 or 40 with all the colours where you want them.

[itsnoteasy]

Is that how you play against your pals in the club Jonny? Do they do the same thing and roll up behind balls? Maybe it's just me that finds it pointless during bounce games, just sucks the life out of the session for me, different story in a match, I still don't do it but I fully accept it's part of the game and I'm not bothered if it gets done against me, although I have seen a couple of lads after being called for a miss about six times in a row and put back just smash everything all round the table and tell them to replace the balls now, they just got so frustrated.