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Originally Posted by tomperty
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Absolutely spot on this advice -
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Hi Bradley,
I've been playing snooker for 20 years and I probably haven't been as consistent as you but I have had 50,60,70 and 90 breaks on occasions and I'd class myself as a regular 30-40 break player. I'm a student on technique, whether I do it is another matter but I know why I miss a shot each time. I just struggle to correct it mentally getting anxious on the shot etc.
What I think you need to work on is the compactness of your technique and action. I suspect the wrist is cocking because of the length of the backswing which I see from your first video is significant. This means as the cue goes through it's less likely to be on the line. If you think of it in simple terms, think that the longer the back and follow through swing, the more likelihood of deviances of the cue off line. Unless you are Ronnie O'Sullivan!. The more that can go wrong at the wrist etc. Does that make sense? So if you keep it shorter you will probably be more consistent and less likelihood of cueing accross the shot, which I can see from your second video you are doing when you miss.
To try and get better consistency I'd move your hand in closer to the white but keep your grip on the back of the cue or move it in slightly if necessary to keep the back arm at 90degrees to the table at rest. Then try and limit the backswing a bit and try and generate the speed as you go through the white to pot the ball with less effort. This so called timing, or greatest contact with the white on the action will mean you need to put less effort and power in to get the same reaction. But remember power is not the speed through the white but the amount of backswing and follow through. But if anything you are hitting those blues with too much power (ie power is backswing and follow through remember not speed) than you need to. The ones you get are with modest power, and probably less backswing and follow through. Try the same shot 10 times but be conscious of slightly less backswing and follow through (or the same follow through) I suspect you will get the pot more times. Please try it and let us know how you get on. Make a note of how many you pot trying long and short backswings with your Bridge hand closer in to the white.
Your back arm is bolt straight and it's clear why you get 50 and 60 breaks in quick succession is because of that. But your back arm is dropping (like Ronnie) because your hand on the table is to far back, so you drop the elbow to go through with the cue. This is likely to affect the alignment of the wrist and back arm, because the wrist had to modify its position as you drop the elbow. I'm sure that's what will be going on.
So keeping it shorter is the way to go. But I doubt the grip is what is really going on with the above in mind. As long as the fingers remain in contact with the cue but don't come off it, is the best advice. So you don't rotate the wrist and cock the wrist. But because you have a bolt straight back arm from elbow down to the wrist, I doubt anything with the grip is going on to rotate the cue.
It may feel as if you are injecting less power with a slightly shorter backswing and more compact action but you will generate more of the normal speed you have earlier through the white, so you will have more control. Think of it that the cue will probably be going thorough the white a bit more without the elbow drop and not the over exerted back swing.
The other thing I noticed is your stance. It's often the basics to look at but you seem to put your right leg wider than the line of the shot. I may be wrong as I'm not seeing you on the line in person but practise over the blue spot. Put the blue on the spot and white in line with middle pockets and pot the blue into the middle. See where your right foot is . It should be on line with middle pockets. Now the point about stance is it keeps everything (body) in the same position on every shot. Repetition is the key. If you are leaning or reaching because the body is in slightly different positions, this can with amateurs affect cueing if the back arm isn't in the same or comfortable place each time relative to body. But I'd be inclined to say this is less likely to be an issue than your long cueing.
Another thing I noticed is because you drop your elbow the tip will rise and you can see that in your first video. Now you probably know putting any top on the white means you are more likely to impart side, because the ball is round and obviously the nearer the top the more pronounced any side will have. Hence why striking off cushions is difficult.
So I'd concentrate on grooving the action with what I say. And if you do change things do one thing at a time and see what it does, but I reckon you could be made into a much better player if you adopt the sorts of changes I've said and seek advise from decent coaches on that. It's easy to think in snooker that it's a grip or other issue, but oversee the basics e.g. The long action. Players like John Higgins even tamed his long back swing because it used to be much longer than it is. Watch players like ding or Graeme dott get the action from a shorter backswing but going through the ball better and longer. Cliff thorburn had a one inch backswing but went through the white and could still play the shots he needed. So with the hand closer you will go through more too. Check how far you go through the white with your action and a more compact one, with hand closer to the white. Get someone to place a red where the tip comes to rest on the two seperate actions. I suspect with my suggestions you will go through more! Also you will finish more in your chest than you do as you could finish closer to the chest than you do.
Always keep your head still is another thing to concentrate on but I doubt that is an issue if you are making big breaks
Also with your very decent cueing already this thing about hitting with side as a coach said, is bs I think. It's easy to think that your cueing is best already being good so why do I need to change, but if you look at everything from a micro level, you will soon realise small things can make a difference. Think what is causing you to miss those long blues to the right, I reckon it's the in cocking of the wrist with too long a back swing and the dropping elbow. Rather than those blues, which a pretty difficult already if you don't do anything other than straight cueing, and try setting up a slightly easier shot to practise the two techniques I mentioned and count how many you pot with your old technique and a newer one.
So in summary :
- bridge hand in a inch or two.
- hand in a position which keeps cue ninety degrees at rest position. Work out where this is for every other shot and modify if near cushions so you don't go back to type etc and always keep the 90 degree rest position
- back arm less backswing.
- finish into chest
- repeat
Hope this helps. What do you think?
SimonLast edited by Dynamics; 22 April 2017, 09:25 PM.Comment
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Another thing I noticed is pre shot routine and sighting which could be going on. You want to see the line of the shot, then step into the line. Two stages. It's easy in practise to just repeat the same 'straight down onto the shot' without seeing the line. Let your eyes adjust a bit more.
I can see the pot at 1:37 you miss in the second video, that your cue is pointing slightly to the right of the pocket as you see it. You then hit the red exactly there. Give yourself more time if practising these reds.
There are three parts to getting a shot in snooker :
- seeing the line before getting down
- getting the cue on the line when down.
- cueing on that line
If you fail in step one, by rushing it or not doing it and seeing the line, you can't do steps 2 and 3 by implication.Comment
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Hi Simon,Originally Posted by Dynamics View Post
I don't understand what you mean by cocking the wrist exactly, thank you for taking to time to help me out it means a great day. I might be mistaken but surely if I bring my bridge hand closer, I would have to move my grip hand higher up the cue to compensate for that and to keep it 90 degrees like you said so my amount of follow through wouldn't change then? Trying not to drop my elbow has been horrendous, some coaches have told me to try to stop others have told me to just work on it because they see it as it does work for me. I will definitely check to see if my right foot is off the line of the aim, it's always tricky because someone like Shaun Murphy has just the outside of his right foot on the line (he explains in his video that the far right toe should be on the line. So next time I practise I'll bare that in mind and have a check. One coach told me to widen my stance because he said my hips were pointing across the shot and why I would miss onto one side more.
I've seen a 3 coaches in my time and to be perfectly honest I felt like their suggestions weren't helpful and they didn't understand me as a player or person. Just telling someone to stop earlier to avoid dropping the elbow isn't helpful advice as that could and has encouraged snatching. I've been working on getting my cue more parallel to the table so even though I'm probably still dropping the elbow, it's not dropping as far down of which has had some success.
Before this post was made I played against a friend, spent the first 4 frames very upset because I was trying different things. I decided to stick to what I've been doing and grooving in since 29/03/2017, unfortunately I don't have a recent video of my practice however I am looking to record myself in the next week or so to see if there is a difference since the original videos I have posted. I have found that in order to get through the ball it felt like my body was moving because of the cue going along my chin (reminded me of how Kyren Wilson plays where it looks like he moves forward), after watching the WSC and noticing that most of the pros (Murphy, Ronnie, Selby, Maguire) dropped their cues slightly just to avoid contact with their chins, this was about 1cm on most shots and at max an inch if they were playing with power. I tried this out and had really good results, good solid long game, best break after that was a 47 but was making at least a 20 every time I got in which I was very happy with. When looking at my arm after the shot it didn't appear to drop as much as in those original videos however until I do record myself I cannot be sure.
Thank you though for your input and would love to hear your thoughts on what I've just mentioned.
BradComment
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i see is timing being your next progress step. that takes lots of hard work, honing a deliberate repetitive cue action so as to create more pace for far less effort.
id be interested to see how you approach the lineup.Comment
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I will try to film in the next week a few long blues, long pots (i.e long stun shot for the black) and then a line up or a T line up.Originally Posted by j6uk View PostComment
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Just thought I'd chip in here, not sure if it's already been mentioned or not.
You said you like to hit the balls hard as it tests your cue action more. I tried doing this a couple of months ago with long blues, I thought hitting them with more power would allow me to improve my cueing at slower speeds as well.
It didn't work though, it actually destroyed my timing for a few weeks. Timing is the key, I'm now timing the ball much, much better than I ever used to. When you get it it will feel effortless to screw back.Comment
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Due to university deadlines starting to creep up and it being exam season not that much but during uni I was spending 2-3 hours solo and around 3-6 hours playing against players. I've emailed my local snooker league to try to play better standard of players as don't really get much of a game, there is two other good university players making 50+ every week but I don't get to play them very often although one of them has agreed to play me more often to improve both of our games.Comment
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Originally Posted by JohnF14722 View Post
Least I'm not the only crazy one! I'm not sure how to improve my timingComment
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What I mean by cocking the wrist is the wrist coming out of alignment with the back forearm. The longer the backswing and less compact backswing the more likely cueing can go wrong by this cocking. Just simply the distance of the swing. This is assuming the backarm isn't straight, but your back arm looks pretty straight but you really need the camera from behind to see what is going on too.Originally Posted by Bradley129 View Post
You can reach a comfortable position bending or extending the bridge forearm to get the back hand in the right position on the cue, but it's no bad thing to bring the grip hand in an inch or a few, to get the arm at 90degrees at rest. The best players often do that - Higgins, hendry etc.
Your amount of follow through will change because with your Bridge hand closer and the back arm at 90 degrees at rest, the cue can go through more and finish in the chest more. You are a little bit running out of cue, because by the time you've hit the ball it's off on it's journey. Whereas you want the tip of the cue in contact with the white for as long as possible. This is all because your rest position is actually back of 90 degrees. Freeze your first video at 8 seconds and you will see that. Also the tip is about an inch from the white. It needs to be right up against the white by less than a cm or even less (watch the pros on that score). So in effect you are completing the follow through part on the backswing more because of these reasons. Do you see?
Dropping the elbow will go because you will be contacting the white more. The thing about coaches is they don't often know what's going on unless they are really good ones and analyse the action by video analysis. But you can do that and find out yourself. I have.
The thing of the toe pointing on the line is just his preference, it doesn't matter where the foot points but the ideal is to get the ball of the foot on the line - watch joe perry have his foot pointing out but the ball of the foot online. The point of getting on line is to keep the body position relative to the cue arm the same in all shots, frankly is doesn't matter where the leg or foot is if this is the same position, but stepping in on the line gives a useful textbook way to try and achieve good alignment each time.
Try this. Stand with feet together potting blue off its spot into middle. White in line with pockets. See the line, then just move the foot forward and place the left leg out to bend. You are on the line. This is what I do because my head is always on the line. The other way with the feet apart and potting the same blue means you have to move your right leg over to the left because it's staring wider than your nose which when you see the line,the nose is on the line. So by stepping forward with your right foot, your weight goes off your right leg and head will move to the left before coming back on the line again. I don't like this second feet apart technique as my head is going on and off the line, whereas feet together I'm on the line just moving the foot forward. I've noticed O'Sullivan clicking the feet together at wsc before his right foot comes forward. Watch him. But falling into natural position is a good thing to do and if you are not affected by poor alignment. I don't know. But I'd work on the cueing foremost as you fall into position naturally and pot well, so that's where the most improvement is likely to come.
If you put your cue more parallel with the table with the back arm starting beyond ninety degrees and to go through the white you will do no other than drop the elbow so in your current set up you can't avoid this. You may think so but you won't eliminate elbow dropping.
Some of the pros drop the elbow but it's considered bad technique and not textbook and certainly not good practise for amateurs. If you are selby or Ronnie yes. But Higgins and hendry don't drop the elbow and most pros don't actually. Most good club century break players don't either. O'Sullivan does it to get through the white more, but the more you do it the more chance for less mere mortals of putting everything out of alignment as now more points of movement can affect the cue coming off line. Before it was just at the wrist, elbow. But dropping the elbow you are getting the shoulder into it as a potential point of taking cue off line and maybe promoting body movement too. Definetely not recommended.Comment
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Ahh I see, i'm gradually working on keeping the wirst in line with my forearm but when I have tried my wrist would rotate inwards but I feel as if it's getting there and that was just from never having the grip loose enough to keep the wrist in line.Originally Posted by Dynamics View Post
I will try to get the tip closer to the white but just scared of feathering the white. I do see what you're saying but I don't understand how getting 1 inch closer will stop the elbow drop, I've always had the habit to be slightly out of the 90 degrees but I don't think it will completely stop it. When I next play I will get a friend to film me on my phone ( won't be good quality) from behind so I can see the grip and the side to see if my elbow is dropping. Still not convinced I'll ever be able to get rid of it since i've been trying for a year with little successComment
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So in summary of my last post if I were you I'd try this. Do only this to start with and keep repeating over a week or two, to get used to it, but be patient with results. They may not come straight away.
- Bridge hand forward an inch with tip nearly touching the white by mms.
- bridge arm bent comfortably . Your arm is quite straight unsurprisingly with your start backarm beyond 90 degrees to the rear and tip away from the white. It has to be
- get someone to tell you where the grip position is on the cue to keep backarm at ninety degrees
- always then hold the cue at that point on the cue for all shots with hand on the table. Because you will start doing this you will forget how far you need to have your Bridge hand near the white if your Bridge arm is bent the same and tip mms from white each time. This will keep the geometry of the back arm starting at 90 degrees
- don't extend too much backswing
- finish more in the chest on each shot.
Try this for a few weeks whatever the results. Be patient. And then practise a hundred of those blues. Note down how many you get now of a hundred blues before changing this. I reckon you'd see an improvement. You need to consciously get the same new technique until it becomes natural.Comment
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It's probably rotating inwards because any slight tendency of the back arm to come accross the shot is more marked if the backswing is longer than if shorter. Most players don't have a perfectly bolt straight back arm.
You shouldn't be scared of feathering and it's pretty easy to get used to it being up close. Most players do.
The elbow drop is happening because your brain is sub consciously telling your forearm to cue more and as you are running out of cue in your current position, so you drop the elbow. If you don't do that because you don't run out of cue and therefore you won't have the impulse, your brain won't sub conciously promote the elbow dropping.
See my attached picture. It shows the white and elbow and wrist points by black dots. The hatched line is the backarm. The top 10 cm line representing the cue is at rest, and the underneath one is the same 10 cm line and cue after the follow through. With your rearward starting position and the same angle finish position , plus starting roughly a ball and a half from the cue ball, see how much less your cue goes through the white and is in contact with it less. You want the cue in maximum contact with the whiteIMG_0870.JPGComment
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