Sidespin on a snooker table both with and against the nap

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

So what? I didn't believe it and now I want to learn all the parameters so I can explain those effects to students and how they would go about using them but not one of you experts has been able to fully explain just how much pace and spin is too much. Maybe one of Dr. Dave's videos can explain the limits but none that I've seen.

How much pace and spin is required for screw back?

Think that through and you have your answer.

[pottr]

Pardon my ignorance please, who is Edge?

Adam Edge

Not quite Selby's standard but he needs to win 1 match from the challenge tour to all but guarantee a 2 year pro card.

[travisbickle]

Travis, here is what I'm looking for. Nic Barrow trained me and all through his training for cueball control he uses a very good formula (in my opinion) for students to grasp the concept. He explains exactly how to hit the cueball to get the desired effect via a formula which is for side RH 1 to 5, LH 1 to 5, Height 1-10 and Power 1-10. For example for a 1/2-ball black to get on a red up by the blue it could be R3, H-7 and P - 4. Power is simple to gauge by getting the student to shoot the spots at maximum accurate power so if he gets 5 lengths of the table then each 1/2 of length equals one division of power.

For SIT this only comes into play for me when the balls are actually touching or close to it since I believe there is either none or very little SIT involved when the balls are separated as that can be explained simply and understandably using cueball curve with no need to go into SIT. But with the balls touching as most of the later videos on here there will be SIT in play. Power is fairly simple as we're talking about pocket weight and that would be P2 or so but if we use P3 or P4 in an attempt to get position there would be no SIT due to excessive pace.

For the j6uk shot it might be R-3, H-2 (for drag) and P2 or you could use 5 o'clock with P2 for clockface which is more simple. However there is a limit to power and side and no one can define that and even Dr Dave has not done a video on the intervening ball such as your pink shot, or at least I couldn't find one on intervening balls.

Remember, this is not just about a shot like j6's but all over the table. For your objective of stopping the cueball there would be another aspect, i.e. - aim off for initial deviation of the cueball. 3/4 red to the middle pocket to hold on the right side of the blue or in other words killing the cueball. Side, pace and height would be determined by the length of the shot I would imagine and straight drag might not work. There would also be aim-off to consider although there is also cheating the pocket too.

It gets a little complicated for the novice to understand doesn't it? And like I didn't know the cueball deviates opposite to the side applied. Come on Travis, keep it nice because all I want to learn is how to teach the magic of SIT and under what conditions it can be used effectively. In snooker we are taught not to pot a ball where we cannot get any position and with the conditions required for SIT there has to be the next OB in a pottable position on the table if we're grabbing the black for instance.

I was being nice lol.

Regarding the shot, it's a touchy feel shot and there is no set way to play it.

You just have to practise it to see for yourself Tel.

One on one would be easier to make you understand, but writing on a forum about it would be hard to put across what I'm trying to tell you.

Just experiment Tel and see the affects for yourself. I've seen you use SIT but not to your advantage

[Terry Davidson]

There is no side transfer there is a squeeze effect that's how it works ...play the shot plain ball on the wrong side to make the shot it still goes in

I agree. Plants are not a SIT effect at all and can't be used to prove SIT.

[Terry Davidson]

To make things very very simple for you.
Put left hand side on the OB and it goes right, and vice versa.
Is that simple enough?

Travis, here is what I'm looking for. Nic Barrow trained me and all through his training for cueball control he uses a very good formula (in my opinion) for students to grasp the concept. He explains exactly how to hit the cueball to get the desired effect via a formula which is for side RH 1 to 5, LH 1 to 5, Height 1-10 and Power 1-10. For example for a 1/2-ball black to get on a red up by the blue it could be R3, H-7 and P - 4. Power is simple to gauge by getting the student to shoot the spots at maximum accurate power so if he gets 5 lengths of the table then each 1/2 of length equals one division of power.

For SIT this only comes into play for me when the balls are actually touching or close to it since I believe there is either none or very little SIT involved when the balls are separated as that can be explained simply and understandably using cueball curve with no need to go into SIT. But with the balls touching as most of the later videos on here there will be SIT in play. Power is fairly simple as we're talking about pocket weight and that would be P2 or so but if we use P3 or P4 in an attempt to get position there would be no SIT due to excessive pace.

For the j6uk shot it might be R-3, H-2 (for drag) and P2 or you could use 5 o'clock with P2 for clockface which is more simple. However there is a limit to power and side and no one can define that and even Dr Dave has not done a video on the intervening ball such as your pink shot, or at least I couldn't find one on intervening balls.

Remember, this is not just about a shot like j6's but all over the table. For your objective of stopping the cueball there would be another aspect, i.e. - aim off for initial deviation of the cueball. 3/4 red to the middle pocket to hold on the right side of the blue or in other words killing the cueball. Side, pace and height would be determined by the length of the shot I would imagine and straight drag might not work. There would also be aim-off to consider although there is also cheating the pocket too.

It gets a little complicated for the novice to understand doesn't it? And like I didn't know the cueball deviates opposite to the side applied. Come on Travis, keep it nice because all I want to learn is how to teach the magic of SIT and under what conditions it can be used effectively. In snooker we are taught not to pot a ball where we cannot get any position and with the conditions required for SIT there has to be the next OB in a pottable position on the table if we're grabbing the black for instance.

[travisbickle]

Then try various spins (top/drag/bottom) to see what works best for you.

I'm talkin to me lol

[travisbickle]

To make things very very simple for you.
Put left hand side on the CB and the OB goes right, and vice versa.
Is that simple enough?

Then try various spins (top/drag/bottom) to see what works best for you.

[travisbickle]

Thanks Terry for Your answer.

To Hello, Mr BS: You keep talking about physics here related to this subject. Please explain me the physics at collision when the SIT thing happens in your own words. I'm not good at physics, but I somehow understand that there is involved mass and friction and energy and force and counter-force etc. (I don't know the correct terminology yet, but I'll learn from You, I guess). I'm not expecting any mathematical formulas, but somewhat simplified explanation of the action, please Hello, Mr BS.

You recognise and can play the shot just like most of us on here can.
I don't know about the physics of the shot either, but I know how to use it to my advantage and that's all that matters.

Physics only applies to vmax who absolutely denies SIT happens and believes in his crazy BOB theory.

[travisbickle]

I teach people and I like to understand what I'm teaching unlike you who just understands enough from watching videos of it. I could show the results of SIT and then what do I say to student? Just hit this shot slow with a bit of spin and keep doing that until you get consistent results. Great teacher you would be.

To make things very very simple for you.
Put left hand side on the CB and the OB goes right, and vice versa.
Is that simple enough?

[Dave_marsy]

on the plant you would be hitting the white plain ball but aiming for the side of the red - not the back of the ball - so take away the white for a second and the the contact between the two balls is as if you are playing this shot with side - basically it proves side though minimal can be transferred to the Object ball to effect the line of the shot.

MR BS loses his patience explaining and people have put various video's up.

I don't understand the geometry of it full myself - as well as he seems to - but I can play the shots that have been shown as can many others on here. Like I say - its not necessary to be able to explain unless you are a coach or something even then ts not really that important - many players can just do it - that is more important.

There is no side transfer there is a squeeze effect that's how it works ...play the shot plain ball on the wrong side to make the shot it still goes in

[RunningSide]

Thanks Terry for Your answer.

To Hello, Mr BS: You keep talking about physics here related to this subject. Please explain me the physics at collision when the SIT thing happens in your own words. I'm not good at physics, but I somehow understand that there is involved mass and friction and energy and force and counter-force etc. (I don't know the correct terminology yet, but I'll learn from You, I guess). I'm not expecting any mathematical formulas, but somewhat simplified explanation of the action, please Hello, Mr BS.

[Catch 22]

So what? I didn't believe it and now I want to learn all the parameters so I can explain those effects to students and how they would go about using them but not one of you experts has been able to fully explain just how much pace and spin is too much. Maybe one of Dr. Dave's videos can explain the limits but none that I've seen.

Hi Terry. I'm certainly no expert. What I've been told /believe is that when the white hits the OB whit centre ball striking..... The path the object ball takes is slightly thicker than the true contact point (see nice barrows videos on the CAT). This is due to the tiny amount of friction at the exact second of impact.

When the cueball is spinning with side at the time of impact then the the friction between the two balls at that exact moment has changed which alters the path of the OB

In short... Plain ball shots naturally are thicker than the real BOBdue to the friction..... And adding side can reduce that friction and the OB will travel closer to its true BOB line


I'm not saying I'm right... But it's what I've been led to believe is true

[Terry Davidson]

Trevor's Axiom!

Still waiting for Ramon to name a venue...

Had a knock tonight with young Edge tonight... I'm not as rusty as first thought

Pardon my ignorance please, who is Edge?

[Terry Davidson]

Terry is desperately trying to find ways to make this shot fail.

He doesn't even use much side so why he's so keen to do this is questionable.

I teach people and I like to understand what I'm teaching unlike you who just understands enough from watching videos of it. I could show the results of SIT and then what do I say to student? Just hit this shot slow with a bit of spin and keep doing that until you get consistent results. Great teacher you would be.

[Terry Davidson]

And the physics vmax? The Fizz-Icks! Ever gonna discuss that? That's where the *evidence* comes from mate. Real, provable, peer reviewed evidence.

Your evidence is, in comparison, a little thin.

Look Biggie, your 'evidence' comes from an associate professor at the #273rd ranked university in the USA who don't even support Dr Dave by giving him some space and a proper pool table. He is an expert with a hi-speed camera but although this camera is capable of 10,000fps he only uses it for billiards at 1,000fps while all the other videos are at a higher speed. Why didn't he use the highest speed to show what's actually happening. I've no doubt he has generated SIT but even his stuff is no use to snooker players.

You cannot teach something by saying 'use pocket weight only, but maybe a little more than that and only use a little bit of spin'. What use is that for christ's sake?

You seem very cynical on here with everyone who disagrees with you but I guess you've never really questioned for yourself what's really going on with SIT which is virtually useless in snooker but perhaps valuable in pool.