Sidespin on a snooker table both with and against the nap

[throtts]

Terry if Jason played the black then plain ball how close to the pot would he be?. I just had a look and I say he would do well to catch the start of the far jaw.

Add - To be fair to you though it may well pot with the CB nearer the top cush. I think you would have to give the CB a good thump though..

[travisbickle]

I'm sorry Travis if I said that, but I haven't seen a clear explanation of what's happening so I can in turn explain it clearly to a student so he will understand what's happening. The videos can all be explained clearly using my theory but you have said you don't understand exactly what is happening.

If a coach doesn't understand what's happening all he can do is like you're doing and use a video to show what's happening. The student will soon suss out the coach doesn't really understand. It's been my experience students learn something quicker if they truly understand how it's happening. I am trying to get an understanding of the phenomenon but all the videos are subject to interpretation or could be the result of Impact Throw and not SIT.

Biggy says there is no transferred side in snooker and in the videos by the time the CB reaches the object ball the spin has dissipated so in my mind if the spin is gone then there can be no spin-induced throw. We never used a spotted CB to see if the spin is gone although I have one here and I will give it a try and see how much spin, if any, is present at contact. I may also video the shot with the camera right over the contact point so see if anything different than 180* is taking place with the OB.

Dr. Dave said the balls 'cling together longer when spin is present on the CB'. This says to me the OB must spin at least a couple of degrees while the 2 balls are in contact since that has to happen somehow to change the direction of the OB. Problem is, we're talking microseconds here and without on of those 10,000fps cameras it's very hard to absolutely prove either theory. You have faith in yours and I have faith in mine because I understand it but you don't understand your theory, you just have faith that it exists. Dr. Dave's theory is in the same category as he hasn't used a very hi-speed camera to good effect. It might be easier to induce SIT on a pool table but he never showed an angled pot with his hi-speed camera.

If Dr. Dave has a Ph.D. from the University of Colorado then he has a Doctorate in Philosophy, not Billiards, but my question is...if he is on staff at the uni why is he doing all his camera work on a 4x8 home table with a worn cloth and poor lighting. Surely at the uni he could set up a 4.5x9ft table with some good lighting to show what's happening with his hi-speed camera. I might see something I can understand.

I know what's happens to the OB when I play the shot, how it happens doesn't matter to me.

Did you try Big Shot simple exercise with an OB?
Pink on the spot, CB 2 inches behind it. Now play the shot full ball with left & right hand side and see what happens to the pink.
My shot and Wilson's were extreme examples of this shot.

This is not rocket science Tel!

[Terry Davidson]

I know what's happens to the OB when I play the shot, how it happens doesn't matter to me.

Did you try Big Shot simple exercise with an OB?
Pink on the spot, CB 2 inches behind it. Now play the shot full ball with left & right hand side and see what happens to the pink.
My shot and Wilson's were extreme examples of this shot.

This is not rocket science Tel!

I did try that shot both with and against the nap and nothing happened to the OB, it went straight both times. I also tried the shot with just the CB and max side at dead weight to the cushion and I couldn't get more than about 3" of swerve without jacking the cue up. I also tried it with drag and side and I got more. I used a spotted CB too. Do you believe spin is transferred to the OB? If you do then you disagree with Biggy.

[Terry Davidson]

I know what's happens to the OB when I play the shot, how it happens doesn't matter to me.

Did you try Big Shot simple exercise with an OB?
Pink on the spot, CB 2 inches behind it. Now play the shot full ball with left & right hand side and see what happens to the pink.
My shot and Wilson's were extreme examples of this shot.

This is not rocket science Tel!

Biggy's shot was impact throw by the way unless you compensate for the CB throw which happens the instant you hit the CB. If I don't adjust my aim to compensate for CB throw then of course I get deflection of the OB, and that's not rocket science either. Try the shot on the baulkline to ensure you hit the centre of the OB and you'll see.

[j6uk]

First of all Jason, when you showed the black and red together from directly behind it was not 1/4-ball, it was less (on both shots). Secondly for true 1/4-ball your CB needed to be about 3" to the right of where it was, or in other words where the camera was. A fill quarter of the black should be covered and it isn't. In these types of videos the eyes are being deceived by the camera angle and that's why I keep asking to have the camera placed behind the pocket as pottr did but you and Travis keep putting it behind the CB. Thirdly you did pot the black off the far jaw.

The CB with the RH side HAD TO push out to the left and then the RH side gripped and sent the CB at a steeper angle into the black and red where it contacted the very right side of BOB and went to the pocket off the far jaw. With no RH side gripping you would have over-cut the black. You potted the black on both shots though. If you can be bothered place the camera directly behind the pocket so we can see the pocket, OB, CB and your cue.

I looked again and stopped your video where the camera was directly behind the shot and if that's 1/4-ball I'll eat it. The red ball needs to be moved into the black another 1/4" at least. This is why the eyes can be fooled. You don't see the actual contact point to pot the black can be hit from a different angle. Set up exactly the same black and red and move the cueball down towards the top cushion about 8" and you'll see that black is pottable without fouling the red.

I believe I do understand what's happening. As I suggested put the CB nearer the top cushion and try the shot. It's pottable from there so it's also pottable if you have the CB approach the black at a slightly steeper angle from the left side.

from the bits iv read from your posts its clear that you do not know what you are talking bout, and i mean that respectively. you simply can not grasp this though whatever reason, likely just to save face, and/or you never actually played these shots before.
the more you argue about stuff thats not relevant the more you getting torn up out there.. but i get it, youve payed your dough got the badge and your a proud fighter. but i cant see how these wounds will heal.
i tried but i feel the more bandages of evidence we offer the more arms and legs your gonna throw so..

[travisbickle]

I did try that shot both with and against the nap and nothing happened to the OB, it went straight both times. I also tried the shot with just the CB and max side at dead weight to the cushion and I couldn't get more than about 3" of swerve without jacking the cue up. I also tried it with drag and side and I got more. I used a spotted CB too. Do you believe spin is transferred to the OB? If you do then you disagree with Biggy.

Nothing happened, really?

You must be the only player in the world (apart from vmax that is) who can play that shot full ball over the spots with side and it goes straight on!
I've already said I don't know about the physics on contact.
After contact I don't believe the OB is spinning

[Terry Davidson]

Terry if Jason played the black then plain ball how close to the pot would he be?. I just had a look and I say he would do well to catch the start of the far jaw.

Add - To be fair to you though it may well pot with the CB nearer the top cush. I think you would have to give the CB a good thump though..

Plain centre-ball from where the CB was would over-cut the black to the outside of the far jaw. Now the next time you're at the club set up Jason's black/red but place the CB level with the black and you'll see the black is pottable centre-ball or to make it even easier to see place the CB even closer to the top cushion so you have a cut-back black and you will see it's pottable.

With this kind of shot it's important where the cueball is in relation to the black. However, take a good look at the red/black in Jason's video from behind his shot and you see that it isn't 1/4-ball so be certain to get that exactly right when you try it. With a cut-back no side is needed at all however with the CB level with the black I would use a bit of RH side and some screw but not needed to pot the black but rather to both pot the black and kick the red into a pottable position for my next shot. With a cut-back black the kicking of the red is a little harder as you might hit the red too thin so in that case you might have to use a little LH side to not over-cut the carom on the red.

[Terry Davidson]

Nothing happened, really?

You must be the only player in the world (apart from vmax that is) who can play that shot full ball over the spots with side and it goes straight on!
I've already said I don't know about the physics on contact.
After contact I don't believe the OB is spinning

So you're saying the OB takes off at an angle right away and goes in a straight line? I couldn't get that effect except when I didn't compensate for CB throw correctly. You have to compensate for that to hit the CB centre-ball. Unless you think I over-compensated.

Do you not compensate and aim-off (aim thicker) when you use side? If you don't believe you have to do that then I fully understand where you are getting these effects from.

[throtts]

Plain centre-ball from where the CB was would over-cut the black to the outside of the far jaw. Now the next time you're at the club set up Jason's black/red but place the CB level with the black and you'll see the black is pottable centre-ball or to make it even easier to see place the CB even closer to the top cushion so you have a cut-back black and you will see it's pottable.

.

I have my own Star table at home, Tel.. Not so sure buddy you would be able to pot the black if you placed the CB level with the black. I have another look but I do not think so, Tel..

[travisbickle]

Biggy's shot was impact throw by the way unless you compensate for the CB throw which happens the instant you hit the CB. If I don't adjust my aim to compensate for CB throw then of course I get deflection of the OB, and that's not rocket science either. Try the shot on the baulkline to ensure you hit the centre of the OB and you'll see.

If you know this then how come you play with the wrong side when you're trying to hold the CB??

[Terry Davidson]

from the bits iv read from your posts its clear that you do not know what you are talking bout, and i mean that respectively. you simply can not grasp this though whatever reason, likely just to save face, and/or you never actually played these shots before.
the more you argue about stuff thats not relevant the more you getting torn up out there.. but i get it, youve payed your dough got the badge and your a proud fighter. but i cant see how these wounds will heal.
i tried but i feel the more bandages of evidence we offer the more arms and legs your gonna throw so..

Now that is totally unfair Jason. When you get back to the club, set up your shot with red/black and move the CB further up the table towards the top cushion about 8". You will see the black is now pottable without any side but since we're talking small tolerances make sure you put the red midway between 1/4 and 1/8th ball like you had it in both your shots.

Is it me or you that doesn't understand these principles? I can pot your black all day long as a cut-back black using no side. That is what your doing when you push off the CB and then straighten it out with the RH side.

[vmax]

swerve curve onto what exactly?? can you break this all down for me tel vmax? its obvious for you two but im finding it very difficult to understand. if you could prevent from dragging me through the bushes and keep it succinct id appreciate it.



-

turn it in pt2

here in this vid i manage to pot a black off its spot thats not possible, as the potting angle is not there. but with the help of rrh-side i was able to straighten it up.
the next shot is the same from a lower angle.

You say it's not possible to pot the black without side, and it isn't from where you place the cue ball, but place the cue ball half an inch to the left on shot one and half an inch to the right on shot two and it's just about possible to make the black off the far jaw using centre ball striking, and that's indeed where the red goes. Bloody good shot BTW spinning the cue ball against the nap which is the hardest way to play it.
Side enables this half inch to be used as the cue ball deflects to that different line and then curves back in just before contact.

You should ask yourself why the shot cannot be played any harder than you do to make the pot.

The SIT afficianados will swear that the shot has to be struck at the right pace for the correct amount of throw, but a very tiny bit too hard and the pot is missed to the far jaw as in your first attempt at shot one, too hard means not enough throw and too soft means too much throw in their world.

In my world too hard means not enough swerve to make near enough to BOB and too soft means too much swerve to get near enough to BOB.

I note that all videos that pertain to prove this throw theory are not made on dead straight shots with camera right behind the pocket.

[Terry Davidson]

If you know this then how come you play with the wrong side when you're trying to hold the CB??

Well I disagree with your interpretation. If you take Jason's video without the red and were attempting to hold the white still after contact to me I would say RH side but you say LH side, but the problem is I can still stop the CB dead with RH but I can't with LH side. So it must be that your stroke is actually a lot better than mine or I'm compensating incorrectly as LH side to me would first push off to the right and attack the black on a thinner cut.

[Terry Davidson]

You say it's not possible to pot the black without side, and it isn't from where you place the cue ball, but place the cue ball half an inch to the left on shot one and half an inch to the right on shot two and it's just about possible to make the black off the far jaw using centre ball striking, and that's indeed where the red goes. Bloody good shot BTW spinning the cue ball against the nap which is the hardest way to play it.
Side enables this half inch to be used as the cue ball deflects to that different line and then curves back in just before contact.

You should ask yourself why the shot cannot be played any harder than you do to make the pot.

The SIT afficianados will swear that the shot has to be struck at the right pace for the correct amount of throw, but a very tiny bit too hard and the pot is missed to the far jaw as in your first attempt at shot one, too hard means not enough throw and too soft means too much throw in their world.

In my world too hard means not enough swerve to make near enough to BOB and too soft means too much swerve to get near enough to BOB.

I note that all videos that pertain to prove this throw theory are not made on dead straight shots with camera right behind the pocket.

I look at that picture and I don't see 1/4 ball of the red covering the black. Yours might be a better explanation than mine but I guess mine was too long as I was trying to teach Jason. If the CB was level with the black this shot can be made plain ball and at any pace.

[travisbickle]

So you're saying the OB takes off at an angle right away and goes in a straight line? I couldn't get that effect except when I didn't compensate for CB throw correctly. You have to compensate for that to hit the CB centre-ball. Unless you think I over-compensated.

Do you not compensate and aim-off (aim thicker) when you use side? If you don't believe you have to do that then I fully understand where you are getting these effects from.

You shouldn't have to compensate much when the CB is 2 inch behind OB. If you're hitting it full ball there is no way OB goes straight!