Sidespin on a snooker table both with and against the nap

[Terry Davidson]

Probably over exaggerated a bit.
But it looks more then 6 degrees for sure as I hit the pink on the wrong side of the potting angle.
But with bottom/side/declaration I can hold crazy angles with I would say would guess to be around the 15 degree mark.
I'll stick a small vid up if you like.

Please do when you have time as I'm still trying to come to grips with how much OB throw is claimed by some. Please place the camera behind the pocket with pocket, pink and CB in the view as that way I can first of all figure what's happening and secondly can I do it. I have potted a 3/4-black off the spot (as per j6uk) and held the spot but it looked to me as if the CB lined up into the plant position. I used LH side and drag hitting at around 7:30 or so. I might have to video this next time.

I also tried an experiment when you said you can't curve a cueball unless you jack the butt up and from my experience it is possible to curve the cueball with a normal stroke, with cue level, I place a marker on the top cushion and cueball on brown spot. Hit the CB with extreme LH side and drag and CB went about 2 ball widths to the left when it hit the top cushion. I played the shot at almost dead weight with cueball ending up level with the black spot.

I then had the thought that it might be different against the nap so marker in middle of bottom cushion and CB behind pink spot. First shot was way too much drag and not enough side and CB went to the RIGHT of the centreline. (I've actually seen Ronnie play a safety shot like this where the curve on the CB was opposite to the side he applied, amazing shot as he snookered behind the brown ball from a tick-off the pack). I then tried the shot again with more side and a bit more power and I got the cueball to end up about 1-1/2 ball widths from the centreline (but my table rolls slightly to the yellow side in that area). The nap on my table is in pretty good shape and I brushed, blocked and ironed it yesterday so it was very smooth with the nap and also pretty smooth against the nap too. I think there might be less SIT on a snooker cloth with a good nap, like the new #10s the pros play on.

[Terry Davidson]

He would teach me more than you could. I have not, ever, come across a poorer coach, with so little knowledge and talent as you possess. I wouldn't take free lessons off you. I don't know any WS coach who would have demeaned himself in writing the pages of rubbish you've chucked up on this topic.

Have I ever coached you? Please quit with the insults and keep your comments civil and not so negative. If I knew who you were I would probably refuse to coach you anyway as it's very tough to coach someone who believes they know it all. Just ask Terry Griffiths about his experience with one of the very top pros.

[itsnoteasy]

itsnoteasy and Travis:

I watched the video posted and I noted that Dr. Dave said SIP was topped out at 6*. If that's correct then Travis how did you get around 15* on that pink? If you were correct then an additional 9* had to come from somewhere so even if SIP exists it can't explain everything and there has to be some curving of the cueball. Although I couldn't see I'd bet that pink went into the left side of the pocket.

Is it possible that this effect is a combination of SIT and curve with the SIT being just a minor part of the throw on the OB? I think the curve on the cueball contributes more but perhaps you or Mr. Big Shot will explain how you got the 15* with SIT and since it was pretty dead-in I don't think there was any CIT involved at all and remember 6* is the MAXIMUM SIT according to your guru Dr. Dave.

6 * is what he could get on a straight shot Terry, that's not to say you can't get more on a cut shot( to be truthful 6* could be the max I just don't know, I'm not clever enough to figure it out) .
There is no doubt there will be swerve but look at the straight shot video, is the cue ball cutting across the ob as it would if it had been swerved into it? Or is it approaching from a direct line? I think it's where Vmax goes wrong,these shots are played trying to avoid it, the cue is flat , it's not jacked up, like in his video, where he is trying to swerve the cue ball, the cue ball is spinning horizontally not tilted as in a swerve shot( horizontal spin will grip the object ball better I think as it runs across the ball very slightly)and imo( again just what I observe I have no video back up this) what tiny little bit of swerve you impart cueing like this won't overcome the deflection from the cue tip. These shots aren't swerve shots, they are spin shots, the pace of the shot isn't to let the cue ball swerve, it's to let it get maximum " grip" on the object ball. If you look at the straight shot spin throw video, you see you can get 6* now if that equates to say two inches over three feet of travel, you have missed the pocket, but also it means to send the ball down the straight line as it should go ,you can hit it slightly thicker, get your throw and send it down the potting line, that's why you don't have to swerve the cue ball, on these shots you are hitting what you can see and the 6* throw( or whatever you can get) is turning the ball onto the potting line.
I have never said you could get 15* as I just don't know the maximum but if far far better players than me reckon they can, I have to take that into account. All I have ever argued is that spin induced throw exists , that just can't be argued about, but there are plenty of things to argue over, like balls, cloth, atmospheric conditions, tips that can impart spin better, lots of thing can affect the amount of throw you will get so maybe a maximum amount is hard to say and all you can do is list things like pace, balls etc etc ,that effect it.

[Terry Davidson]

I can't agree more mate.
I'm afraid some won't though no matter what you show them

I believe Dr. Dave in that video did induce some kind of OB throw. The question then becomes is it useful to me on a snooker table (don't care about pool tables).

[itsnoteasy]

I believe Dr. Dave in that video did induce some kind of OB throw. The question then becomes is it useful to me on a snooker table (don't care about pool tables).

Think of it this way Terry on that video if you could only see the yellow contact point on the object ball but the potting line was 6* to the left , or the red line, could you then pot the ball?
Have a wee look and see what I mean
https://youtu.be/GpsVeOYGcu8

[Terry Davidson]

6 * is what he could get on a straight shot Terry, that's not to say you can't get more on a cut shot( to be truthful 6* could be the max I just don't know, I'm not clever enough to figure it out) .
There is no doubt there will be swerve but look at the straight shot video, is the cue ball cutting across the ob as it would if it had been swerved into it? Or is it approaching from a direct line? I think it's where Vmax goes wrong,these shots are played trying to avoid it, the cue is flat , it's not jacked up, like in his video, where he is trying to swerve the cue ball, the cue ball is spinning horizontally not tilted as in a swerve shot( horizontal spin will grip the cue ball better I think as it runs across the ball very slightly)and imo( again just what I observe I have no video back up this) what tiny little bit of swerve you impart cueing like this won't overcome the deflection from the cue tip. These shots aren't swerve shots, they are spin shots, the pace of the shot isn't to let the cue ball swerve, it's to let it get maximum " grip" on the object ball. If you look at the straight shot spin throw video, you see you can get 6* now if that equates to say two inches over three feet of travel, you have missed the pocket, but also it means to send the ball down the straight line as it should go ,you can hit it slightly thicker, get your throw and send it down the potting line, that's why you don't have to swerve the cue ball, on these shots you are hitting what you can see and the 6* throw( or whatever you can get) is turning the ball onto the potting line.
I have never said you could get 15* as I just don't know the maximum but if far far better players than me reckon they can, I have to take that into account. All I have ever argued is that spin induced throw exists , that just can't be argued about, but there are plenty of things to argue over, like balls, cloth, atmospheric conditions, tips that can impart spin better, lots of thing can affect the amount of throw you will get so maybe a maximum amount is hard to say and all you can do is list things like pace, balls etc etc ,that effect it.

The problem with induced throw is that it can't be predicted with any accuracy but I still am finding very hard to believe on some cut shots with side there can be 6* in change of direction even if my brain recognizes (unconsciously obviously) that there's a different potting angle and I have to hit somewhere other than BOB. In learning the game and coaching others I have to use a baseline that is standard and that's BOB.

[itsnoteasy]

The problem with induced throw is that it can't be predicted with any accuracy but I still am finding very hard to believe on some cut shots with side there can be 6* in change of direction even if my brain recognizes (unconsciously obviously) that there's a different potting angle and I have to hit somewhere other than BOB. In learning the game and coaching others I have to use a baseline that is standard and that's BOB.

When you cut a shot , do you always aim for dead centre of the pocket, or do you aim to( what gets called the money side of the pocket) this is still back of ball but you have compensated for the throw, if you aimed centre pocket( which will be the true plant position) you would miss thick, this is because of impact throw, this is what I mean when I say every player compensates for it, we all have to you do as well Terry , it's just you have played that long you don't even have to think about it and back of ball to you is automatically picked out with this adjustment done.

[Terry Davidson]

Think of it this way Terry on that video if you could only see the yellow contact point on the object ball but the potting line was 6* to the left , or the red line, could you then pot the ball?
Have a wee look and see what I mean
https://youtu.be/GpsVeOYGcu8

Sorry but there's no way to tell in those short distances where the cueball is in relation to OB and also if there was a curve on the CB because of spin. With maximum spin the CB will curve, there's just no way around that fact but the question becomes 'how much curve?'. See my other post regarding the experiment I did with spin/drag shots on ironed snooker cloth. I didn't mention I also tried with an OB on the brown spot (spotted cueball) however it's too tough to say what's really happening as the OB didn't spin but my accuracy for keeping the OB on the centreline of the table sucked.

[itsnoteasy]

Sorry but there's no way to tell in those short distances where the cueball is in relation to OB and also if there was a curve on the CB because of spin. With maximum spin the CB will curve, there's just no way around that fact but the question becomes 'how much curve?'. See my other post regarding the experiment I did with spin/drag shots on ironed snooker cloth. I didn't mention I also tried with an OB on the brown spot (spotted cueball) however it's too tough to say what's really happening as the OB didn't spin but my accuracy for keeping the OB on the centreline of the table sucked.

The shots aren't played with maximum side though ,it tells you how to play them on the video. To me it looks pretty clear the cue ball is approaching straight down the yellow line.

[travisbickle]

Please do when you have time as I'm still trying to come to grips with how much OB throw is claimed by some. Please place the camera behind the pocket with pocket, pink and CB in the view as that way I can first of all figure what's happening and secondly can I do it. I have potted a 3/4-black off the spot (as per j6uk) and held the spot but it looked to me as if the CB lined up into the plant position. I used LH side and drag hitting at around 7:30 or so. I might have to video this next time.

I also tried an experiment when you said you can't curve a cueball unless you jack the butt up and from my experience it is possible to curve the cueball with a normal stroke, with cue level, I place a marker on the top cushion and cueball on brown spot. Hit the CB with extreme LH side and drag and CB went about 2 ball widths to the left when it hit the top cushion. I played the shot at almost dead weight with cueball ending up level with the black spot.

I then had the thought that it might be different against the nap so marker in middle of bottom cushion and CB behind pink spot. First shot was way too much drag and not enough side and CB went to the RIGHT of the centreline. (I've actually seen Ronnie play a safety shot like this where the curve on the CB was opposite to the side he applied, amazing shot as he snookered behind the brown ball from a tick-off the pack). I then tried the shot again with more side and a bit more power and I got the cueball to end up about 1-1/2 ball widths from the centreline (but my table rolls slightly to the yellow side in that area). The nap on my table is in pretty good shape and I brushed, blocked and ironed it yesterday so it was very smooth with the nap and also pretty smooth against the nap too. I think there might be less SIT on a snooker cloth with a good nap, like the new #10s the pros play on.

It wasn't me that said you can't swerve a cue ball using side because you clearly can.
But that wasn't the case with the shots I played. CB gets pushed out a bit to the left but holds its line.
Just very soft touch and let the cue do it's work.

[Terry Davidson]

When you cut a shot , do you always aim for dead centre of the pocket, or do you aim to( what gets called the money side of the pocket) this is still back of ball but you have compensated for the throw, if you aimed centre pocket( which will be the true plant position) you would miss thick, this is because of impact throw, this is what I mean when I say every player compensates for it, we all have to you do as well Terry , it's just you have played that long you don't even have to think about it and back of ball to you is automatically picked out with this adjustment done.

No, my aiming is derived from my positional requirements. I cheat the pocket if I need to but I also use inside side with drag if I want to hold the cueball. I can remember getting screwed up in that Cdn Champs because we were using Simonis 4000 snooker cloth which was dead slow and I was having problems because I had to shoot hard all the time but I am a pretty clear thinker and I don't think I've ever compensated for any OB throw but I have compensated for using side, in fact you have to and then your judgement of power becomes critical.

[itsnoteasy]

On the video Terry if the cue ball was swerving across to hit the yellow line contact, would it stay where it does after contact? Or does that look like the reaction of a ball that's come straight in, so to speak?

[Terry Davidson]

It wasn't me that said you can't swerve a cue ball using side because you clearly can.
But that wasn't the case with the shots I played. CB gets pushed out a bit to the left but holds its line.
Just very soft touch and let the cue do it's work.

See, I was sure I saw the CB curve back a bit on your pink shot, not much but I believe your pink may have been a combo of effects (who Knows?) with some SIT (but very minor) and some curve to get to the final straight line of the OB. This is why I'm looking for camera shots from behind the pocket because the Barry Stark one the CB definitely was curving towards BOB.

[itsnoteasy]

No, my aiming is derived from my positional requirements. I cheat the pocket if I need to but I also use inside side with drag if I want to hold the cueball. I can remember getting screwed up in that Cdn Champs because we were using Simonis 4000 snooker cloth which was dead slow and I was having problems because I had to shoot hard all the time but I am a pretty clear thinker and I don't think I've ever compensated for any OB throw but I have compensated for using side, in fact you have to and then your judgement of power becomes critical.

So a half ball black off the spot you are aiming dead centre of the pocket?again watch this video .i can't keep posting this up Terry, it's pretty simple stuff.
https://youtu.be/CGsXQ1MvO9Q

[throtts]

Eg, Terry. The top spin with a bit of power and side ( whichever one you use LH or RH ) potting the black off its spot then to come off the top black cush to disturb the pack of reds is a tough one. Way harder than off the blue in to the pack..