Sidespin on a snooker table both with and against the nap

[Terry Davidson]

https://youtu.be/EidPecrMULI

If I was hitting correct BOB you would only see 3/4 of the CB visible, instead you seeing a full ball contact.
I don't see how you and vmax are not seeing this

You have to catch it at the instant of contact and remember the cueball is curving a bit so it's not a full-ball contact on the red. As I've said place the camera behind the pocket with OB and CB and cue in the frame and watch the CB curving into the OB.

[Terry Davidson]

Well, we're old and blind I guess. Let it go.

https://youtu.be/EidPecrMULI

If I was hitting correct BOB you would only see 3/4 of the CB visible, instead you seeing a full ball contact.
I don't see how you and vmax are not seeing this

[travisbickle]

You have to catch it at the instant of contact and remember the cueball is curving a bit so it's not a full-ball contact on the red. As I've said place the camera behind the pocket with OB and CB and cue in the frame and watch the CB curving into the OB.

The white never goes past the tape on the right at any point .

Correct BOB is 1/4 ball past the tape- so the OB would have to turn at right angles at the last moment to hit correct BOB!

If we did a vote on this I'm sure it would be only you & vmax who would disagree on this.

[j6uk]

I'm not clear on what you're referring to j6. What do you mean by 'straightening the OB?' All I can think of is let's say a 3/4 black where I want to run the cueball up past the pink for a red to the middle or opposite corner. If I was on the green side of the table I would use top right-hand side to go 2 cushions and I would aim-off my cue to hit the black thicker but because there's some power in the shot I'm compensating for the initial throw of the cueball to the left because of the RH side.

Your question doesn't make sense to me as I believe you are curving the cueball into the spot directly opposite the pocket (or nearly so) if you do not use a lot of power. In the 3/4 example above if I didn't want the cueball to go anywhere nearer the cushion for some reason I would use drag with RH side, the drag slowing down the cueball enough so the RH side can bite. For this shot you aim a little thick on the black and slow speed allows the spin to take hold but I don't believe you are 'throwing' in the black with spin induced OB throw.

So give me an example shot where you would 'straighten the OB up'. I use this type of shot when I have to but it doesn't come up very often. Going around an intervening ball is not rocket science, just a combination of CB throw and then side directing the CB to the sweet spot on the OB.

When you straighten out the OB do you use power? I would say not because the only effect would be the initial throw on the CB with the speed not allowing the side to bite. According to B.S. this spin induced throw on the OB was first proposed by a Frenchman back in 1835 but you have to factor in the fact he was likely using heavier ivory balls and on a cloth which wouldn't have been as fine as the cloths we have today. Billiard players use side on almost every shot but they never use a lot of power on any of their shots whereas snooker players use a lot more power. In pool on a 9,8 or 7ft table there is also less power used on a napless cloth.

Does the nap and size make a difference? I would say it does and in snooker there are less of these shots coming up because there's less congestion and the player is not confined to just one, as in 9-ball, or a small number of object balls, as in 8-ball. Also, I've never seen or heard of any discussion on spin induced OB throw in relation to snooker except for the Karnham and Barry Stark videos but to me there was no proof of any SIT 'throwing' the OB in but rather CB throw and recovery.

With your obvious skills at snooker I doubt you even consciously make that aim-off adjustment for side. For the beginner or less skilled player it is dangerous to take on unless he has practiced a lot using side when he probably should have been working on a straight cue delivery.

im okay but nowhere near your level in terms of natural ability and achievements, which makes your understanding of all this stuff all the more remarkable.
i will do another vid with a few more shots like straightening but for now i only have this. and from what i saw behind the line noway did the white make the correct contact point on bob.

[vmax]

You're doing it again travis, look at the lines you've drawn, they come to a point to the right of the centre of the OB red, so they're not straight down the centre of the line of aim, therefore the contact point looks like full ball but it isn't.
Here's a screen shot I made frame by frame using Nero Platinum 2017 video editing tool, this is the exact point of contact, one more frame and the red moves. Although it's a bit fuzzy you can see green between the left side of the cue ball and your grey line while the right side of the cue ball is touching your grey line, a grey line which is to the right of the centre of the line of aim anyway.

Put your lines in the right place and the cue ball will have curved into the right side grey line, shame on you yet again, you must think I was born yesterday.

Snapshot000002.png

[travisbickle]

You're doing it again travis, look at the lines you've drawn, they come to a point to the right of the centre of the OB red, so they're not straight down the centre of the line of aim, therefore the contact point looks like full ball but it isn't.
Here's a screen shot I made frame by frame using Nero Platinum 2017 video editing tool, this is the exact point of contact, one more frame and the red moves. Although it's a bit fuzzy you can see green between the left side of the cue ball and your grey line while the right side of the cue ball is touching your grey line, a grey line which is to the right of the centre of the line of aim anyway.

Put your lines in the right place and the cue ball will have curved into the right side grey line, shame on you yet again, you must think I was born yesterday.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18891[/ATTACH]

Looks like the exact pic that Ramon put up which you rubbished lol.

Correct BOB is 3/4 ball your pic is showing a full ball contact

Do you not like being proved wrong or something? You are making yourself look like a fool tbh

btw the right line is 100% spot on. The left line is not that important really.

[vmax]

Here's a screen shot of your first example j6, again using Nero Platinum 2017 video editing tool. The shot is played a bit fast, and the cue ball is going across the line, to get an exact contact point shot using frame by frame. This is the next frame after contact, the frame before is before contact, so actual contact is made between frames, but it looks to me like the red isn't hit too thick allowing the side on the cue ball to throw the red in, the contact was BOB.
One shot we couldn't see anything as you were in the way, and the one where you held for the black didn't need any side just a very soft screw to hold where in fact you held it, yes you could have used side and I'm not saying you didn't, but to me it wasn't neccessary.

Maybe you need a better tip mate, one of those Long BA tips would have bitten into the cue ball with centre ball soft screw to hold that shot easily, played a few myself this afternoon.

Snapshot000001.png

[vmax]

[IMG][/IMG]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18891[/ATTACH]

Yeah right, compare his to mine.

[travisbickle]

Yeah right, compare his to mine.

Still a full ball contact in your picture.

So going on what you think happens on contact the red should follow the line of the tape being a full ball contact which it clearly doesn't. It completely disappears from view!!!

You can clearly see the red been thrown to the left, it's not a natural contact

CB has to be 1/4 ball over the tape for correct BOB

[Terry Davidson]

Travis:

What I noted in your video was initially the CB was pushed a little bit to the LEFT and because of the RH side started to curve before it got to the pink as it's moving towards the RH line. From then on the CB curls a bit more. There's no pocket visible so I don't know if it was a 3/4-ball or 7/8-ball however I will grant you the OB left towards and under the LH line. As the CB was coming on a slight curve to the right from before the pink ball it's very hard to tell whether it's SIT or curving the CB into the correct potting angle.

I keep saying, we would need the camera behind the pocket and showing pocket, OB, pink ball and CB along with the last 6" of the cue. No one is going to prove this one way or another and I still haven't seen anything that convinces or shows me exactly what's happening. You'll have to admit the CB is initially pushed off and then starts returning before the pink ball if you watch closely. As far as I can tell without seeing the pocket the CB reached Bob.

[travisbickle]

Travis:

What I noted in your video was initially the CB was pushed a little bit to the LEFT and because of the RH side started to curve before it got to the pink as it's moving towards the RH line. From then on the CB curls a bit more. There's no pocket visible so I don't know if it was a 3/4-ball or 7/8-ball however I will grant you the OB left towards and under the LH line. As the CB was coming on a slight curve to the right from before the pink ball it's very hard to tell whether it's SIT or curving the CB into the correct potting angle.

I keep saying, we would need the camera behind the pocket and showing pocket, OB, pink ball and CB along with the last 6" of the cue. No one is going to prove this one way or another and I still haven't seen anything that convinces or shows me exactly what's happening. You'll have to admit the CB is initially pushed off and then starts returning before the pink ball if you watch closely. As far as I can tell without seeing the pocket the CB reached Bob.

Look at the original video, it's been up enough times. Clearly 3/4 ball pot

[Terry Davidson]

Here's a screen shot of your first example j6, again using Nero Platinum 2017 video editing tool. The shot is played a bit fast, and the cue ball is going across the line, to get an exact contact point shot using frame by frame. This is the next frame after contact, the frame before is before contact, so actual contact is made between frames, but it looks to me like the red isn't hit too thick allowing the side on the cue ball to throw the red in, the contact was BOB.
One shot we couldn't see anything as you were in the way, and the one where you held for the black didn't need any side just a very soft screw to hold where in fact you held it, yes you could have used side and I'm not saying you didn't, but to me it wasn't neccessary.

Maybe you need a better tip mate, one of those Long BA tips would have bitten into the cue ball with centre ball soft screw to hold that shot easily, played a few myself this afternoon.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18892[/ATTACH]

j6:

Did you intentionally miss the first pot? There was no audio on the video but it looked like you were trying to explain something. Every pot in your video looked to me like you were hitting BOB or close to it. By the way sarcasm gets you nowhere. I use these shots when they come up, especially around the black so you can believe it's SIT throwing the ball in and still make all the shots and I can believe it's CB curve to BOB and still make all the shots. I'm a skeptic at heart and learned all this old school. In my experience (Occamh's Razor) the most simple solution is likely the correct one and the ONLY way 15* of change from the 1808 contact can be made is with the 2 balls clinging together longer than normal but here we're talking microseconds and I find it hard to believe CB spin causes the balls to cling together longer.

But you have it your way and I'll have it my way. This argument seems to have been going on since 1835 and it still hasn't been solved to everyone's satisfaction. Using your term, straightening the OB is not challenge at all.

[Terry Davidson]

Look at the original video, it's been up enough times. Clearly 3/4 ball pot

The original video looked like a straight-in pot and I'm not going searching for it because my time is valuable to me as I ain't got much left. The original Wilson shot was virtually straight in and your video said 'Wilson Pot' but I guess it's your take on the Wilson Pot as the pink was more into the shot on his pot.

[j6uk]

Here's a screen shot of your first example j6, again using Nero Platinum 2017 video editing tool. The shot is played a bit fast, and the cue ball is going across the line, to get an exact contact point shot using frame by frame. This is the next frame after contact, the frame before is before contact, so actual contact is made between frames, but it looks to me like the red isn't hit too thick allowing the side on the cue ball to throw the red in, the contact was BOB.
One shot we couldn't see anything as you were in the way, and the one where you held for the black didn't need any side just a very soft screw to hold where in fact you held it, yes you could have used side and I'm not saying you didn't, but to me it wasn't neccessary.

Maybe you need a better tip mate, one of those Long BA tips would have bitten into the cue ball with centre ball soft screw to hold that shot easily, played a few myself this afternoon.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18892[/ATTACH]

so theres no such thing as helping side then? its actually called swerve, and all players/im dong is swerving onto bob? and holding the cb is some odd swerve reaction?

[travisbickle]

The original video looked like a straight-in pot and I'm not going searching for it because my time is valuable to me as I ain't got much left. The original Wilson shot was virtually straight in and your video said 'Wilson Pot' but I guess it's your take on the Wilson Pot as the pink was more into the shot on his pot.

Straight on pot :biggrin-new::biggrin-new::biggrin-new:
Get the mods to put a poll up to see what members think on this.
I reckon you'll only get a couple of votes if I'm honest