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**Nat5guns** · 13 August 2005, 09:06 PM

I have a similar problem m8, on my last backswing i go through the ball then my fist hits my chest and send the cue line way off to the right. Its a really annoying problem, ive told my coach about this problem and he reassures me that its all in my head, but i think hes wrong.

**reverse_side** · 13 August 2005, 10:46 PM

SuperDude84, a hooj meal of words there monsieur - like your style... imagining of all the Pro's and what their elbow do, I can see Graham Dott the best as one who seems to duck down on the shot quite a lot, but not sure if his elbow follows suit.

The rest of this post you might want to digest a few paragraphs at a time!

Just popped Ronnie's 147 DVD on and watchin a few of those guys, it seems the height of their elbow does drop on certain shots; strong follow-thru's and when their bridging a distance from the white; reaching/stretching really. But mostly I would think that it's not part of the technique you would want to try and control, it's like the recoil of a gun; sight properly, squeeze slowly and the gun will naturally pop up/back (unless it's like a hooj gun I saw once on the back of a landrover; the recoil was forward?)

I've also (not out tonight, boo-hoo, bit of a coldie/back-achy evening make up for it tomorrow typo thing) just got m'cue out on the dinner table with a steel measure; results as follows... from where the cue touches my thumb and index to where I'd hit the white, is 9", feathering back I pull it 4" back to 5", following through on an average shot it's a 2" push, on a power shot I'd imagine following thru an extra 4" to 15".

On the power shot, looking backwards, I could see my elbow come down and thru a little but only because my cueing arm is travelling far enough to pull it along a little. On a normal shot, because I'm not fiercely gripping the butt with all my fingers, there's natural amount 'give' so that I can keep the cue parallel to the table... the pivot is my thumb and first 2 fingers, not my little finger so at both extremes of full extension (forward and backwards on a normal shot), it's enough to hold the tip at the white then pull it back on the backswing and follow through after hitting the white..... no elbow dropping happens unless I'm really heroic with a power-shot - not very often as I try an time the follow-through to have maximum impact.

I know what you mean about punching your chest, I think I do that, mainly because I tend to use the right side of my chest as another anchor point because the cue slides back an forth while still remaining in contact with my chest. As long as your sighting is accurate, it keeps the cue dead straight.

It's not unhealthy to be wondering (so much) about what you should (or not) be doing; it shows you're experiencing a lot of things that at the moment you not sure which are important to do, or something to focus on as part of a bad technique - when you can nail down the essential features of YOUR technique you need to make sure your repeating every shot, then you'll start to see some good results, a high break of well of 50 and whenever you hit a poor shot, you can mentally (&V.Quickly) run through a short tick-list and highlight what you didn't do.

If the talent you have is like a rough diamond, you can (with either expert tuition or good luck) cleave off unnecessary wasteful material (your thoughts), then end up with a crystal clear idea of what you need to do all the time. The problem arises when (like golf), you virtually need to do everything right at once for it to all work to allow you to pot the ball and get position. Football for example, can sometimes have more margin for error that allows you to feel successful, but if you do 1 thing wrong in snooker, unless EVERYTHING else is perfect; you'll invariably miss the pot, or at worst, end up in no-man's land for position.

What you've said about all the things you think make up your technique, shows that you'll be able to feel how each change you're going to make and practice with will have varying differences on the shot you play. The advantage you'll have is that once you've spent the (hard) work of analysing what makes the most difference and how to make sure you can repeat this formula, is that during a frame; whether friendly or competitive, is that you'll have a clear idea of what you should be doing and use your energy more conservatively. Rather than, as I've seen far too often, the opponent hasn't a clear idea of what makes them tick and can spend more time frowning and swearing at why they're not potting everything (anything!) instead of realising the perspective of what they're doing (i.e. not stuck in a 3rd world gutter begging, but 'playing' a game of snooker in the warmth) getting positive and concentrate on a couple of things... like my sig says, the 1st 3 things are essential to enjoy the fruits of the practice you've put in.

To come back to the questions and comments on your technique.
1. 5 inches of follow-through 'until you hit your chest' I would say is excessive, especially if it's on most shots.
2. Trying to keep your cue horizontal is a good thought to have.
3. Waiting for your right hand to hit your chest to stop your follow-thru is not helpful
4. Lifting your body is something you can avoid having to do, though it shows you're eager for solutions and aren't afraid to try; which is good.

Some advice in summary, to highlight a few things you could try, would be to 'make yourself a bit more compact', which is shorthand for shortening your backswing and follow-through so that 90% of your shots take place with with EVERYTHING staying still apart from your right arm from the elbow down. Not even breathing, just going back to the dinner table now; breathing in or out can alter the position of your cue a considerable amount (the difference in height at my backhand is 2" inches from highest to lowest, if you try and keep the cue flat your chest will expand and push the back of the cue 1 inch to the right and therefore to the left at the tip... by as much as 1/2 an inch - I'm 6'4" but it'll be similar to everyone else)

Once you've reigned in the amount you 'feather' and then follow-through, 90% of shots won't make you come anywhere near punching yourself! Also, the top of your elbow will remain at the same height - cue into a mirror or look backwards if a table or chair is nearby. Once you know you're not doing it anymore, you can file it away and not even think (worry) about it anymore.

Moving your body anywhere will now be something you'll feel obvious that it isn't necessary to do anymore; it's similar to the Golf games where you can risk over 100% power but you know it magnifies all your errors, the secret is to 'play within yourself' so that any small error doesn't grow into a monster.... oh dear I'm 2 inches away from perfect position instead of, S*IT I've missed the blue on a clearance that my opponent's just won £20 off me by potting it.... type of thing.

I'd guess that you're about 15 or so and you're therefore re coming into your prime for soaking up ideas that will shape your life, let alone snooker potential, so if you can spend the time on and off the table wisely, it'll set you off on a more productive course. Treat it like a bit of temporary fog you can choose to wear night sights through and get to where you're hoping.

As for dear old Nat5Guns, I tried a more mental approach with your game that for most people, 88's at 15 would seem (more than) a success; but, if you feel you're not achieving your potential, that's great... no-one can ever be fully satisfied apart from when they've won a tournament and 'you were playing good enough to beat everyone', but even then, if you played fantastic, you gonna need to reproduce that form in the future to be happy again - common sense will hopefully kick in if someone else plays out of their skin and beats you; you can't beat yourself up too severely in that case.... use the negative anger energy to go on a run, box, scream, laugh, talk, share the grief or get some practice and work out what happened on your own or with someone else.

Nat, if you think that you were hitting your chest on your follow-through, maybe what I've said to SuperDude84 makes a little sense? It could be a simple case of 'being more compact' as Hansen's just said about my dear ole LFC.

It's like having a powerful car (where's Swiss Toni!!!) without traction control and putting the throttle down too quick; wheel spinning when you'd imagine getting to 60mph in 4 seconds or less. Squeeze the power in when you're playing well, ease off and conserve things early on. As you start to play better, you can add in a few more power shots that you'll probably (with practice) only hit your chest AFTER the tip's hit the white. If you're hitting your chest before or at impact, maybe the cue's too small or hold it further back or shorten the bridge. At impact (for a right-hander) your knuckles on your right-hand should be facing the floor, the forearm should be exactly vertical. Maybe someone filming or taking a few photos would give you an idea what you're actually doing. A few movie clips will also engrave in your brain what it takes for YOU to play well when you see what you look like when you DO.

Try some golf if you like to, it'll allow you to practice dead-ball striking in a different and hopefully refreshing way - wax on, wax off sort of thing.

gotta go, throat's gettin sore now, I though this would happen - Merocets are fantastic, Merocaine if it gets really bad; liquid Night Nurse works a treat too.

Good luck and you never know, if I get a reply back from Paul McKenna's management team, I could share the Hypnotic Audio product entitled, "Sensational Snooker"... that's great too. Google it for more information.

TTFN

**superdude84** · 14 August 2005, 10:02 PM

thanks for the helpful reply reverse, very inspirational! will be changing a few things the next time i go to my club. just to clarify...if you are pushing through alot "you" can push through up to 15 inches? how do you do that? surely if you anchor your cue on your chest and you keep it straight throughout the whole stroke then your hand will hit your chest, you would have to lower your backhand to continue past your chest?

**reverse_side** · 15 August 2005, 06:06 PM

Thanks SD, "inspirational", makes it all worthwhile - Blur's Park Life lyrics spring to mind.

So the only mystery is the hooj portion of follow-through I mentioned in my dissertation? That's fine if the rest has helped... here we go then.... like BB, to clarify...

It'll make sense when you realise that the 15" of extension is measured from where where the cue touches my bridge hand (0") through to where the tip ends up after the power-shot's completed. The extension is already at 9" when the tip is just off touching the white, so from a normal follow-through of 2", it's only another 4" to make a total of 6" for the most I'll ever follow-through, and only 5-10% of shots anyway.... 9+2+4=15.

The cue is perfectly the right length for my height and how straight I keep my left arm; or should I say, 1/2" shorter and it wouldn't be long enough. So at 6'4" I'm imagining that if you're hitting your chest there's only 4 things you need to try, or a combination:

1. Reduce follow-through

2. Hold the cue further back towards the butt

3. Reduce the size of your bridge

4. Get a longer cue

If you're bridge is too long, you'll also find that you're less accurate; imagine a fishing rod or a long ruler vibrating off a table. The feathering (or 'waggle' as you called it) should be a little piston with small linkages; generate the power with compact & well 'timed' technique - less to go wrong and the balls will stay friendly if they're not flying around the table. Always remember that at impact, your forearm and knuckles of your cueing arm should be pointing straight down; perpendicular.

The advantage of playing within yourself is that it you'll pot more because you've allowed yourself to be more accurate, "trying too hard" really does have some truth to it. Once you pot more, you'll feel more confident and be able to use the spare mental energy on imagining where you want the white next shot. Better positional play makes the pots easier so it's, "self perpetuating", and if it happens to go belly-up and the next pot's too difficult, you'll be level-headed enough to play safe and leave your opponent the, "midden".

The plan, if you can get regular mid-20's and a high of 44 is to carve out a nice chance and then concentrate on scoring 15 or more each time without leaving a sitter for your opponent. Depending on the standard of who you're against, it might affect the shots you take on, but giving them a realistic handicap will curb any tendency to lose respect and larrup a few too many. If you want to have a lash as though you don't care - try them on your own..... Or at least say, "one lash a frame", and put some (Alex) Higgins shoulder into it to make it worthwhile!!!

Once you get to the stage of expecting to pot more than 3 quarters of your attempts, you'll start to regularly surprise yourself with the level you're playing at and be dissatisfied with low performance. Common sense will tell you what you should be achieving and your experience will allow you to tweak your technique and groove your moves back to your own personal perfection. Achieving some pride in your play will open even more doors of achievement; some will be springboards, others small stepping stones, it might feel like work too hard to be worthwhile, but if pride in performance is important - the end results will warrant the commitment especially if you can test yourself in a tough environment of competition; League, tournament or even a handicap best of 5 down the club for who buys the next round of drinks; or a pie-frame as we used to have around lunchtime!

There are many many players who have potential that never realise any of it, simply because they don't feel it's possible to play any better. They're imagining getting a 50 break, but it's dreamland for some that either can't practice enough or haven't anyone to guide them in the right direction. Natural-talent is the internal ability to feel what's right without being told and a ravenous eye to see what others are doing that feeds their burgeoning knowledge. They can then be inspired by visualising success and justify the work using the desire for ever more improvement to eventually be the best.

Imagine a rubber-band where one end is a target you've set yourself, the further you are away, the more you're pulled towards it. As you approach attaining this milestone, you can pick another target to maintain the momentum you've created, choosing bite size or revelation, realistic or far-horizon isn't a problem because overstretching and feeling the rubber-band snap can be treated as a chance to try even harder and 'work on your game'. Making steady progress is the aim and reaping the benefits proportional to the time and effort you can afford. Enjoying and looking forward to the next time you play is an envious feeling to give yourself that can be like gold-dust to some; even if they've got potential to really make a good fist of their talent.

Having an 'old head on young shoulders' is a good compliment to be given, it shows maturity and an aptitude to make the most of your ability; win when struggling, annihilate when you're flowing, put up a brave fight when you lose - either way showing humility and respect. You have a responsibility to try as hard a you can then take the rewards or be beaten by someone playing better and move on. Having a solid bedrock of practice will turn the hope of winning into confidence after getting the victories on the scoreboard.

The finer points of psychology revolve around a long term goal with smaller achievable targets along the way. You rise above small setbacks and learn how to quickly tell what's not going right and the remedies to sort it out; the desire you've built up from the effort you've expended gives you the energy to keep on trying. Seeing your opponent wilt re-doubles your focus, determination and performance. Seeing your opponent trying harder and even attempting gamesmanship has only a positive affect on your game...... this is a vital clue to a winning mentality; treat everything as a reason to try harder; turn a perceived negative into a possible positive and more often than not, you'll be proved right to 'look on the bright side', fate could be discussed here... another time maybe.

Overall, there's a lot to be said for a positive attitude, but even more will be achieved with a proven history of dedicated and focussed practice both on the table and in your mind; you have to think like defenders, midfield AND the strikers in a football team…. be the Captain of all your talents talents.

Good luck again Superdude, you'll probably look back on these times as an unusual period where you can't imagine why you weren't getting at least a few 50's a week. Here's to you jumping up the High Break Table and let's hope that Nat5Guns has some success too.

Cheers.

PS this post is a re-write of one from last night when 'submit message' gave me the dreaded '404 cannot find server' error..... My (swear box) cup runneth over - only got out of my sick bed to check emails & fantasy footie score; I saw I was in the top 2% of over 400 thousand entrants so a temporary boost until the internet fell-over! Didn't have the energy to write it again; wasn't anywhere near as long as this one ended up though!

**jayjay** · 20 August 2005, 12:41 PM

I must say this has been a truly inspirational thread, I treated my lower cuearm like a pendulum, leaving my elbow static if you like.
Now, I sometimes go through one of these (it´s all in the head) phases, where I have a twitch and snatch at the shot, I think dropping my elbow by follow through could prevent this action or certainly minimise it.

Now with the snooker being back on telly, I noticed near enough all players drop their elbow.

could this be the breakthrough I have been longing for??

JayJay

**CoachGavin** · 7 November 2007, 05:02 PM

Hello. This is a very interesting topic. Nowadays most players drop their elbow but you must keep your elbow up as you pull the cue back. This is done by using the wrist as well as the arm to pull the cue back. The follow through will then have a 'wrist snap' which adds power to the shot and the elbow will drop naturally. If the grip is at 90 degrees to the elbow when the tip is at the cue ball then you should gain the required follow through. Hope that helps. See www.snookercoaching.net for pix

**C-J** · 7 November 2007, 10:17 PM

Thanks Gavin,will work on that.

#reverse side:those are some very wise words in your posts,made me smile a bit ,i recognised a lot!Many thanks for that,

C-J

**Cyril** · 8 November 2007, 01:14 AM

If you want to see players dropping their elbows on the stroke, then watch some of the oldies on video. Spencer, Reardon and, even more Joe and Fred Davis - all, whose cue-arm's went really strongly through the ball. It should be remembered though, that they were all brought up playing with much heavier balls and on a lot thicker cloths.

**CoachGavin** · 8 November 2007, 11:33 AM

Agree totally with cyril especially as he is from my neck of the woods. I have an old video which the bbc called century breakers and you can see on it how joe davis and fred davis both dropped their elbow and as cyril says the cloths and ball were much less responsive. Interesting also that on the video both jimmy white and steve davis dont drop their elbow as much as they do. Steve has definately changed his technique so that his elbow now comes down.

**Semih_Sayginer** · 8 November 2007, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by CoachGavin

Steve has definately changed his technique so that his elbow now comes down.

do you think that change "occured" around the time he started to play "a lot" of 9 ball competitions?

**CoachGavin** · 8 November 2007, 11:42 AM

did read somewhere that he looked at the way ronnie played and as he had been going downhill for quite a few years i think he probably just adjusted his technique to what the players around him were doing.

**Cyril** · 8 November 2007, 02:52 PM

I can recall Steve talking about his new technique a few years back. He just said it enabled him to get "through" the ball better. His 1980's technique was ultra rigid, with his elbow not dropping at all. In fact it acted like a piston with only his lower arm swinging on the stroke.

It is often talked about how he used to practice as a boy. His cirgar chomping dad, Bill, would stand behind him with a big stick and if the young, snotty nosed ginger urchin should dare to drop his elbow, then it'd get rapped with the ole timber.

**CoachGavin** · 8 November 2007, 07:20 PM

Not sure about the beatings but I have heard that his dad held a cue above his head to check if it was moving and as a result davis in the 80's didnt move apart from his cue arm. Its all about building up a good habit which he kept up. It meant that even on long pots and power shots he had no body movement - maybe the measures were extreme but it worked

**Semih_Sayginer** · 8 November 2007, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by CoachGavin

Not sure about the beatings but I have heard that his dad held a cue above his head to check if it was moving and as a result davis in the 80's didnt move apart from his cue arm. Its all about building up a good habit which he kept up. It meant that even on long pots and power shots he had no body movement - maybe the measures were extreme but it worked

heard steve in an interview on bbc say he/his dad placed a book on top of his head to check its movement

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dropping my elbow on final stroke?

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