American Pool Player Sees The Light

[mosconiac]

I've been playing pool for the last 16 or so years and have come to realize that the pool stance is a compromise. I am now trying to incorporate the snooker technique into my game.

I should note that I spent the first 5-6 years playing pool every day for 4-10 hours. I did well in local 8B & 9B tourneys (I was a step behind the top local players), but would regularly finish in the top 10%...sometimes winning. I have organized 14.1 & 1P leagues, which I've won more often than not.

My career highlights are:
9B: 7-pack (bartable)
9B: 4-pack (9')
8B: 6-pack (bartable)
8B: 5-pack (9')
14.1: 91 balls (TOUGH 9')..my greatest achievement IMO.

In the last 10 years or so, I married & had a child...you know what that means. My play is down to a total of 4-6 hours per week. I am reduced to the point of *hoping* everything falls into place in order to play well. I want/need to be able to fall into a decent "stroke" each time out (so the game remains enjoyable)...and I believe I can only achieve that thru snooker fundamentals.

My pool game tends to be an erratic series of highs & lows (far more lows than highs), which I attribute to the imprecise, inaccurate, sideways stance pool players tend to adopt. When I'm "on", I play OK. More often than not, I play poorly.

So far, I've pulled my stance around such that my left shoe is even with the tip of my right shoe...pretty square. Both feet point as close to straight ahead as possible...turning that right foot inward was a revelation!

I am 6'-4", so I've had to push my left foot out a bit to accomodate the shorter pool table (relative to the snooker table) and to minimize tension in the muscles of my right leg.

So...my next goal is to improve my hip/shoulder rotation by bending my left leg a bit more. After that, I will concentrate on back arm alignment (it sometimes drifts a bit behind my back), move my grip hand forward on the cue (to put my forearm more vertical), and improve my wrist position (my forearm & back of the hand are in a straight line, knuckles pointing downward) to a more snooker-like, knuckles out.

I also have a delightful elbow drop that I can not seem to cure. Sometimes, my elbow pushes out to the right too...chicken wing!!

I hesitated to provide the following video as a testement of my old style...but I can not improve if I do not recognize that which I am doing wrong, right? Remember, this is video is a few years old & IS NOT indicative of my current state.

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[mosconiac]

Didn't realize you can not embed youtube here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWb22_gzBxc

[eaoin11]

This is an interesting post for me. I lived in Japan for 5 yrs until returning to Australia quite recently, and had to deal with trying to maintain a good stance and action with minimal practise on American style pool tables.

I think the snooker style makes potting a lot easier and is good for players who can't practise so often (like us), but may not offer as much control for US pool, so I agree that it is a compromise.

American style pool tables are quite a bit lower so I'm curious, when standing, do you lock your right knee straight or bend it slightly? I'm shorter than yourself and prefer to lock mine but know of quite a few taller snooker players including a QLD state champion (who is also a coach with the most mechanical action I've ever seen), who bends the right knee slightly for comfort. Neil Robertson's brother, Mark Robertson, also does this and he is one of the leading (UK) pool players in Australia, also with a very nice action. I think that it's technically sound if you remember to bend at the hip, not the waist, and keep the knee still.

[mosconiac]

I do maintain a locked right knee, but have tried a bend too (in the interest of a more level cue). I prefer the locked knee (for the sake of simplicity if nothing else), but this is subject to change over time...I may have to concede if a bit more left knee bend doesn't help lower my cue.

Thanks for the comment about bending at the hip, not the waist. I'll check myself next time I play.

[nrage]

I think the snooker style makes potting a lot easier and is good for players who can't practise so often (like us), but may not offer as much control for US pool, so I agree that it is a compromise.

I am curious.. why doesn't the snooker style stance/action offer as much control for US pool?

[eaoin11]

Thanks for the comment about bending at the hip, not the waist. I'll check myself next time I play.

No worries, Terry Griffiths made that point in one of the bbc coaching vids and I've heard that getting your lower back flat is highly prized by the pros. If you look at the shape of John Higgins or Neil Robertson's back, it is truly remarkable, and they worked very hard over a lot of years to get that. The first time a coach pushed me into that position I found it very painful in the right hamstring but was shocked at the power and ease of my long potting.

Another point that was a revelation for me is making sure there's a bit of weight on the left leg. If I do that properly it makes a massive difference to my cueing, but I personally find that it can be easy to forget if I'm a bit rusty.

[ace man]

I am curious.. why doesn't the snooker style stance/action offer as much control for US pool?

Of course it does. I use square stance for both games. Some world class pro players too, so I can't see the problem. Using sideways stance at pool just to copy other pool players will not improve your game at all.

One exception might be the hard break off shot. There you will have body movement and also the cue will not follow motion on a horizontal plane...it will move more like up/down especially on the final delivery. Sideways stance can give you more room to move the cue around. I use sideways stance and more upright position only for the break.

[eaoin11]

I am curious.. why doesn't the snooker style stance/action offer as much control for US pool?

Well regarding my own play, I think the weight of the balls is a big factor, and maybe the lower table which is a comfort issue for many players.

And seeing so many top players in the Phillipines, Japan, US etc with virtually nothing like a snooker stance .... I can't beleive that it's because of ignorance or inferiority. I think it's because the technique they've developed is the best compromise between easy potting and control.

Mika Immomen is a century break snooker player and has a beautiful action in American style pool, but it's still very different to the snooker style. If you look at it you kind of sense that it somehow gets more of his center of gravity behind the white ball.

[nrage]

Well regarding my own play, I think the weight of the balls is a big factor, and maybe the lower table which is a comfort issue for many players.

And seeing so many top players in the Phillipines, Japan, US etc with virtually nothing like a snooker stance .... I can't beleive that it's because of ignorance or inferiority. I think it's because the technique they've developed is the best compromise between easy potting and control.

Mika Immomen is a century break snooker player and has a beautiful action in American style pool, but it's still very different to the snooker style. If you look at it you kind of sense that it somehow gets more of his center of gravity behind the white ball.

Ok.. I can understand that the square stance might not be as comfortable, but that's not 'control' per-se. I can also see how it might not allow for as much power (weight behind the white etc) which you could say is 'control' .. but do you really need more power than you can generate with a square stance? You might on the break off shot, as ace man has mentioned, but if that's all, then you can't really say you don't have the control you need. If however due to the heavier balls etc, you cannot generate the screw you need, without using a side on stance, then you've got a good point

.. but maybe you can generate more screw, with less actual power, by having a more stable/accurate cueing action. I think this is the 'snooker' way, vs the 'pool' way of generating cue power. In snooker it comes from the cue action, in pool from raw power. But, that said, snooker balls are lighter.. but pool cloths are thinner.. so it's not a like for like comparison.

[mosconiac]

You've raised a good point that pool tends to require a powerful break. By definition, this is not possible with the snooker stance as it's primary focus is to limit body movement. For the break shot only, I plan to maintain the traditional pooll stance with its less-restrained upper body position.

If you are interested, I've put some effort into the analysis of breaking technique.

Hillbilly: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=125466
Archer: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1486199
Nevel: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=126254
Morra: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1913709

[eaoin11]

Ok.. I can understand that the square stance might not be as comfortable, but that's not 'control' per-se. I can also see how it might not allow for as much power (weight behind the white etc) which you could say is 'control' .. but do you really need more power than you can generate with a square stance? You might on the break off shot, as ace man has mentioned, but if that's all, then you can't really say you don't have the control you need. If however due to the heavier balls etc, you cannot generate the screw you need, without using a side on stance, then you've got a good point

.. but maybe you can generate more screw, with less actual power, by having a more stable/accurate cueing action. I think this is the 'snooker' way, vs the 'pool' way of generating cue power. In snooker it comes from the cue action, in pool from raw power. But, that said, snooker balls are lighter.. but pool cloths are thinner.. so it's not a like for like comparison.

I guess it's just a suspicion I have from what I've seen, but hard to substantiate technically because there are many factors, as you say.

[old school]

I have played English and American for 30 yrs.My stance is basically left foot forward,knee bent,right foot in line with my back hand,knee straight,bridge hand arm is straight and back hand elbow 90 degree drop.Back is nearly parallel to the bed.I am nearly 6 ft and yes on a pool table which is lower than a snooker table stance can be different especially with regards to the level and angle of your back and hips.I would give you taller people a tip though,please dont push yourself into an unnatural or un comfortable position,your back will let you know after a long session if you have.I like a stance that you relax or fall into,thats the only way I can explain it,the rest i.e. action and potting will follow.It is better to be relaxed and flowing in your game than scrunched up and awkward goiing for "the perfect stance".Find something comfortable,enjoy yourself and then work on your cueing action.

[ace man]

If you are interested, I've put some effort into the analysis of breaking technique.

Hillbilly: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=125466
Archer: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1486199
Nevel: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=126254
Morra: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1913709

Thanks. I've seen this before. Your analysis was great.

I've noticed that the best breakers at pool use slight pause for that shot at the back and that their final feather tends to be quite slow and very controlled compared to initial ones. Will try this at my next pool tournament. If it doesn't work, I'll give up hard break and switch to girlie soft break...

For those who do not play pool, this isn't easy by any means. Most average club players who try to break the balls very hard either add so much unwanted side spin that most of control and energy is lost, strike too much downward and send the cueball airborne too much, or they simply can't hit the head ball square enough at that speed resulting in a loss of energy also. This is very difficult to coordinate properly, it's not a lucky shot.

[old school]

Good technique and timing can generate the power you need for break off and play.Tip speed is just as important,if not more so,in generating the power for a break.Some club players I see do put unwanted side or make the cue ball leave the bed and jump simply because they overcook the break or shot (dreaded chicken wing as an example)) simply put they try to put too much power into a shot instead of concentrating on technique.One of the most powerful breaks I have regularly seen at county level is a skinny,little guy who uses a cue with an 8mm tip that weighs maybe 16oz.He feathers once,back hand has no pause and his break is awesome.Tip speed and technique,works every time.I believe this is more relevant to English Pool (lighter balls) but it can equally apply to American.