A question of a match yesterday

[acesinc]

...
That's the trouble with referees in all sports, they know the rules but don't know the game...

No doubt that there is truth in this statement. Curious that you should phrase it this way. When I had a beginning referee training course, the instructor paraphrased you saying, "Don't expect that the players will know or understand the rules of the game. They won't." So, "Touché!", I suppose.

[Londonlad147]

I think he is normally a good ref but does he play the game to any degree himself - I would never have called it.

That's the trouble with referees in all sports, they know the rules but don't know the game.

As far as I understand it, Paul is quite an accomplished player!

[jrc750]

As far as I understand it, Paul is quite an accomplished player!

Yes i'm sure someone said he's a century breaker ?

[Mr Snooker]

Furthermore, I just wonder whether the referee would have made the same call if it had been o'sullivan who had played it. Don't think he'd dare.

can you imagine if Paul Collier called the push shot on the Late great Alex Higgins and Alex disagreed with Paul Collier, what would Alex's reaction be towards Paul and afterwards in the press conference

[narl]

can you imagine if Paul Collier called the push shot on the Late great Alex Higgins and Alex disagreed with Paul Collier, what would Alex's reaction be at the towards Paul and afterwards in the press conference

A flying headbutt from the top of the table, followed up by higgy taking a slash in his water glass.

[Rocket147]

I didn't think it was a push shot, even less so as he wasn't striking the ball straight.

[DeanH]

I have watched the slo-mo on the video (2:08:00) at 0.25 speed available on Youtube settings and one thing is clear Brecel's cue never hits the bed of the table.
As previously said Collier does have a very close look at the cue ball and red as he spots the black. He must have considered the possibility of a push shot, and as he states "from what I heard and what I saw", if he had had any doubt he would have consulted the slo-mo, but as he had not doubt he did not.
Lifting the butt up does nothing for a close shot, he lifts his butt because he is playing over another red.
At this slo-slo-mo, it really does seem to be a push shot; cant rely on the sound as TV pickup is different from what you here in the arena.
To me.... push shot from what I see.
I don't think it put either player off for the rest of the match. Brecel went on to win this frame with a 78 break.

[screw-back]

Brecel's cue never hits the bed of the table.

That's fine but the noise is the contact of the tip on to the cueball forcing it (the ball) into the cloth.

Collier does have a very close look at the cue ball and red as he spots the black.

As do most referees.

if he had had any doubt he would have consulted the slo-mo, but as he had not doubt he did not.

Since when have referees had access to a slo-mo? I don't think they do.

Lifting the butt up does nothing for a close shot, he lifts his butt because he is playing over another red.

What do you mean "does nothing for a close shot"? Of course it does, it gives the forward momentum for the cue ball by using a stabbing downward action thereby preventing the horizontal follow-through with the cue to make simultaneous tip/cueball/object ball contact.

I don't think it put either player off for the rest of the match. Brecel went on to win this frame with a 78 break.

I think you are wrong here as it would have dented any confidence Brecel would have had in the referee.

I am more convinced now that it was a poor decision.

[JimMalone]

To me in the slow motion it looked a bit like a push-shot, but it was hard to determinate.
One thing though: Referees only make this kind of decisions, when they are really sure they are right. Of course they can be wrong nonetheless.

[DeanH]

That's fine but the noise is the contact of the tip on to the cueball forcing it (the ball) into the cloth.

I was referring to someone's earlier statement that the cue tip hit the bed.

As do most referees.

Of course, as ALL referees should do
But I do think that Collier did do an extra-close look at this position as he spotted the black

Since when have referees had access to a slo-mo? I don't think they do.

If there is a Marker with the fancy monitors, etc, like on most televised tables nowadays, the referee can request a play back; just like in that Selby/Williams Simultaneous Hit a few years back.
Just like asking for a replacement of balls overlay.

What do you mean "does nothing for a close shot"? Of course it does, it gives the forward momentum for the cue ball by using a stabbing downward action thereby preventing the horizontal follow-through with the cue to make simultaneous tip/cueball/object ball contact.

What I meant was, probably did not write it correctly, was that Brecel did not lift the butt because of the close shot, but he lifted it to play over another red.

I think you are wrong here as it would have dented any confidence Brecel would have had in the referee.

To me, I don't think he was bothered one bit not long after the event.

I am more convinced now that it was a poor decision.

Your opinion
no worries, every one is entitled to them

[acesinc]

There is an etiquette in snooker and a player would always call a foul on himself - there was a gap and he cued down on the white and into the bed of the table at an angle to the red I think ref made a bad call here and he was not sure so he should not have called it. I think he is normally a good ref but does he play the game to any degree himself - I would never have called it.

Luckily it never cost him the frame. If Anything it actually disturbed Marco.

Perhaps, you have not seen this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX7OpHAAwB4

I hope you are not suggesting that the players are all angels. Perhaps a few are but under the glare of the lights and the unblinking eye of the camera, a player of course had better call the foul on himself even if the Referee doesn't see it because almost surely someone else has been witness. Did Marco know he touched Red in the above referenced video clip? Perhaps so, perhaps not, but what your statement ludicrously suggests is that because Marco did not 'fess up to touching Red, then the Ref shouldn't call foul either even if he had seen it. No one can legitimately argue that that statement makes any sense. A foul is a foul; a Referee deals with facts and the evidence of his own eyes and ears. He will also accept a player's word when he pleads that he is guilty, but NOT when he pleads that he is innocent when such a plea contradicts the facts at the Referee's disposal.

...
Still no matter as Brecel won the frame anyway, but Collier should have taken Marco's opinion on board and backed down. Two world class players saying it wasn't a foul means it wasn't a foul.

Much seems to have been made in this thread of Marco Fu's position in the controversy and that he somehow agreed with Luca Brecel that no foul was committed. Does anyone actually KNOW this as a fact? I have seen no supporting evidence of that. Anyone seen an interview with Fu afterward in which he confirms that statement? The ONLY evidence I see is that Fu requests the Referee to take a look at slo-mo video to confirm or reverse his call. In no way does Fu ever say, "I don't think that was a push stroke" or anything remotely similar. Fu does not state an opinion one way or another on the matter; in fact, he may not even have an opinion...he certainly did not have a good vantage point. So why would Fu make this request to view slo-mo if he didn't absolutely agree with Brecel? Well, I can only speak for myself, but human beings have a certain amount of natural empathy, some more so than others. Personally, when my opponent is in an awful state, I don't have much fun at the table myself; it is simply off-putting. Marco Fu demonstrates as much with his utterly awful attempt at a safety stroke following this incident. Marco did not want to take his stroke while he knew that Luca was still there steaming about a perceived "wrong call" so a call for slo-mo would give a little time to settle down and if the Referee confirmed the call with slo-mo, then Marco need have zero guilt now in addressing his shot. Paul Collier does not call for slo-mo because there is no doubt to him that a foul has been committed and his authority will not be questioned and such precedent is important to maintain the status of the role of the Referee in the Game.

And so now both players have been put in a bad state of mind until they can settle themselves within the next couple of strokes. But to be clear, the reason was because of Brecel's poor shot choice, not an incorrect call from Collier.

[Byrom]

So T walker, lennon11, aceman, Byrom, v-max, screw back, Brecell, Marco Fu and the rocket147 say no foul

Dean H and the american and Paul Collier say push shot foul. any more for any more? Or shall we just get on with life.

While we are on the subject - red or pink Dean?

[itsnoteasy]

I saw Marco Fu say in an interview that if Luca says it wasn't a foul that was good enough for him and it wasn't a foul, as he is an honest player. That doesn't exactly say he saw the shot as no foul at the time ( probably no way to tell from where he was )but more he trusts LB. Just my opinion but if super slow mo can't tell, the ref can't either, if it was me a I would have said to the player , I think that was a push what do you say, if he said no , I would have taken it as so. I know not everyone is truthful but we have to try and keep the standards up in our game, and in such a situation you are so easily found out and it will stick with you for life if it's an obvious lie you tell.
Red first by Selby, the only other way the red moves is the cue ball hits the pink and bounces into the red , this clearly doesn't happen, look at the cue ball reaction.

[Londonlad147]

... if it was me a I would have said to the player , I think that was a push what do you say, if he said no , I would have taken it as so.

Sorry but you simply can't have refs asking the players if they've just committed a foul!

At local level I *know* there are players who would never own up to their own fouls, even if they're blatantly obvious.

[cesard]

Thanks to everybody to answer