Shanghai Masters 2011 - Discussion

[Hal]

Well, I am not suprised that MJW was really angry, it is 3rd final he lost in 10 months in decider, after being very close to winning title every time, I have not seen Australian Open final, but I think even there he was behind the line and still lost. Selby´s escape was extremly lucky and I think, referee made right decision, after watching it many times, I agree that red was hitted first, but contact was so thin .... I hoped MJW would take the title, as he is my favourite player, but it was not ment to be.

I enjoyed the match, it was big battle, congrats to Selby, he is great player and I hope he will turn his potential to winning more titles now

[Theguywithaplan]

Another lucky victory for selby, well done the jester.

i remembered the 2008 welsh open final after frame 13. if selby missed the ball, he had a luck and Ronnie didnt seeing anything.
Like this final. One of the luckiest hit&hope ever.

I suppose his world number one ranking is luck as well?

[PatBlock]

true grit and guile are acronyms for time wasting, exploiting rule loopholes in a gentleman's game to your advantage and shameless denial after fouling? these are the hallmarks of a champion and world no.1?

Think you're being a bit harsh there. Selby is just an excellent all round match player. He knows how and when to control the pace of the game, which has always been an important aspect of snooker. I know this really pees off the wham bam fans, but that's just tough, snooker is much more than 147s in five minutes, although they are also great to watch.

As an opponent, if you are unable to deal with that aspect of the game, then you're missing one of the most important tools in a professional snooker player's toolbox, mental strength.

....something obviously made him very angry .. and its probably not just the incident with the pink.

Yes you're right, he began to realize that he was once again falling apart at the sharp end of yet another final, which must be very frustrating, but nobody else's fault but his own.

Although I'm a big MJW fan, his attitude after frame 17 yesterday was very disappointing.

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[Rane]

Another lucky victory for selby, well done the jester.

i remembered the 2008 welsh open final after frame 13. if selby missed the ball, he had a luck and Ronnie didnt seeing anything.
Like this final. One of the luckiest hit&hope ever.

Ronnie had lots of chances in that final but lost his plot, and in the end Selby made a very tough colour clearance.

[arbitrage]

firstly, i am not a wham bam fan. secondly, snooker is a gentleman's game in which the rules have largely remained archaic due to reliance on player etiquette when playing the game. this becomes an issue when players like mark selby exploit the rules to disadvantage other players. his disruption tactics are not limited to time wasting either.

my point there is that MJW has never expressed that kind of anger before publicly in a game. however, when he comes up against players like selby, who disregard the fact that this is a gentleman's game, display unsportsmanlike conduct and try and exploit every loophole in the rules against him, i can conjecture why he would lose his cool in that fashion - particularly after that critical decision on the pink. there was nothing disappointing about williams' attitude - the real disappointment is the snooker authorities lack of effort in sorting out these issues and thereby creating an environment where "gamesmanship" ala selby style is encouraged. imagine a new wave of young players receiving the signal that its ok to deliberately waste time and force re-racks to gain a competitive advantage over other players. what exactly does that do for the sport?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyITn1osqfw

[Looki]

firstly, i am not a wham bam fan. secondly, snooker is a gentleman's game in which the rules have largely remained archaic due to reliance on player etiquette when playing the game. this becomes an issue when players like mark selby exploit the rules to disadvantage other players. his disruption tactics are not limited to time wasting either.

my point there is that MJW has never expressed that kind of anger before publicly in a game. however, when he comes up against players like selby, who disregard the fact that this is a gentleman's game, display unsportsmanlike conduct and try and exploit every loophole in the rules against him, i can conjecture why he would lose his cool in that fashion - particularly after that critical decision on the pink. there was nothing disappointing about williams' attitude - the real disappointment is the snooker authorities lack of effort in sorting out these issues and thereby creating an environment where "gamesmanship" ala selby style is encouraged. imagine a new wave of young players receiving the signal that its ok to deliberately waste time and force re-racks to gain a competitive advantage over other players. what exactly does that do for the sport?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyITn1osqfw

What exactly Selby did wrong, in your opinion, in the match against Williams? Could you just point out one concrete thing that shows Selby's gamesmanship in that match?

[arbitrage]

What exactly Selby did wrong, in your opinion, in the match against Williams? Could you just point out one concrete thing that shows Selby's gamesmanship in that match?

please watch the series of videos on the link in the previous post.

[Looki]

please watch the series of videos on the link in the previous post.

I watched the videos, the re-rack had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the match. Red-pink incident certainly put Williams off but it was hardly Selby's fault as he originally accepted foul and a miss and Williams himself wanted it to be checked. So no gamesmanship in my opinion in that match what-so-ever. Feel free to disagree.

MJW simply threw it away, and I'm saying this as a big Mark Williams fan and not-so-big Selby fan.

[arbitrage]

I watched the videos, the re-rack had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the match. Red-pink incident certainly put Williams off but it was hardly Selby's fault as he originally accepted foul and a miss and Williams himself wanted it to be checked. So no gamesmanship in my opinion in that match what-so-ever. Feel free to disagree.

MJW simply threw it away, and I'm saying this as a big Mark Williams fan and not-so-big Selby fan.

did i mention anything about the re-rack affecting the outcome of the match? NO. please stop setting up strawman arguments (not initiated by me) and answering them yourself as a form of rebuttal.

my point about the re-rack is that mark selby is exploiting loopholes in the rules to disadvantage other players, who would normally not resort to such tactics. mark williams was 21 points ahead in that frame. selby had a touching ball which he could have played the white into baulk w/o leaving mark williams a pot on. instead he pushed the white to the cushion forcing mark williams to push the white back into the pack the next shot. sure, mark williams could have refused a re-rack and played this touchy touchy game all day with him but possibly he wanted to get on with it (as would most professional players), so he accepted the re-rack. selby might not have contravened any rules in doing that but it was definitely not a gentlemanly nor sportsmanlike gesture.

now, if you have watched the videos - would you care to comment on selby throwing his towel in the air after john higgins did NOT go in-off. do you advocate this sort of behavior?

[Odrl]

Well, you are expecting Selby to play a pretty attacking shot there, considering a red was over the right corner pocket. He would have had to make sure to cover it. It was also awkward cueing over the reds, and the part of the side cushion he could actually hit was quite limited.

Personally, I think he played the right shot, and there was certainly nothing unsportsmanlike about it.

[Looki]

did i mention anything about the re-rack affecting the outcome of the match? NO. please stop setting up strawman arguments (not initiated by me) and answering them yourself as a form of rebuttal.

my point about the re-rack is that mark selby is exploiting loopholes in the rules to disadvantage other players, who would normally not resort to such tactics. mark williams was 21 points ahead in that frame. selby had a touching ball which he could have played the white into baulk w/o leaving mark williams a pot on. instead he pushed the white to the cushion forcing mark williams to push the white back into the pack the next shot. sure, mark williams could have refused a re-rack and played this touchy touchy game all day with him but possibly he wanted to get on with it (as would most professional players), so he accepted the re-rack. selby might not have contravened any rules in doing that but it was definitely not a gentlemanly nor sportsmanlike gesture.

now, if you have watched the videos - would you care to comment on selby throwing his towel in the air after john higgins did NOT go in-off. do you advocate this sort of behavior?

No, of course not I don't. But I wouldn't hang him for that.

But I, obviously mistakenly, thought that (with these videos) you wanted to make a point concerning the Shanghai Masters final, my bad. After all the thread is "Shanghai Masters 2011 Discussion".

on the flip side, have you ever seen mark williams lose his cool in a match like that? where he would just belt the ball to get out of a snooker w/o even looking at the table first (and in a deciding frame)?
something obviously made him very angry .. and its probably not just the incident with the pink.

Well, sorry if I get the impression that you suggest there was something else going on in addition to red-pink incident that affected Williams (and maybe the outcome of the match). If it wasn't the re-rack, was there something else that put Williams off? Did Selby perhaps threw his towel in the air between the frames..? Or what it probably was?

[nrage]

Well, you are expecting Selby to play a pretty attacking shot there, considering a red was over the right corner pocket. He would have had to make sure to cover it. It was also awkward cueing over the reds, and the part of the side cushion he could actually hit was quite limited.

Personally, I think he played the right shot, and there was certainly nothing unsportsmanlike about it.

Agreed. In addition, nothing "forced" Mark Williams to choose the shot he then did, he chose it because it was the 'correct' shot to play given the situation, just as Mark's previous shot choice was 'correct' for the reasons you mention.

(the following comments are directed at the group, not Odrl alone)

Just because a frame ends in a re-rack does not mean the players involved actively tried to make that happen. They're all playing what they believe to be the 'correct' shot in each situation, and some frames head toward a re-rack simply because there are no good options to avoid it. Deciding frames are particularly prone to it because many players tend to err on the side of caution, instead of risking a pot or difficult (yet advantageous) safety - as arbitrage has suggested Selby should have done.

Sure, there are players to have fewer re-racks than others, but those same players lose more frames due to shot choices which are arguably 'too' attacking for the situation. But, that's the game they play and when they're playing well the shot comes off more often than not.

That's the beauty of snooker, all styles are equally valid, if not as fun to watch.

[hotpot]

Hats off to Selby for another great comeback , just cant stand his negative play on times , but actually like his personality .

One thing about Williams having followed him since the start is he,s anything but a sour loser . A more gracious opponent in defeat you fill not find .

[nrage]

One thing about Williams having followed him since the start is he,s anything but a sour loser . A more gracious opponent in defeat you fill not find .

Yeah, his behaviour this time is a real surprise, and it's making many people think there must have been more to this. I think perhaps Mark W just "had a bad day at the office". Nobody is at their best all the time.

[arbitrage]

yes, it is a shanghai masters discussion - i just wanted to point out that very clear-cut incident in the john higgins match to illustrate mark selby's unsportsmanlike behavior. with him, its not limited to the shanghai masters match - he uses these sort of tactics and displays this sort of behavior in almost every match.