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  • Ding: Concession or misunderstanding?

    We were all somewhat surprised by the shenanigans of last evening, and there was of course the official line that Ding misunderstood, either by miscounting how many frames O'Sullivan had already won or misunderstanding the length of the match – and of course there were suggestions that this was a cover-up.

    Questions were first asked when Ding made a very casual approach to two consecutive shots in the twelfth frame (just before the interval). It was obvious that there was somoe off-table situation that had shaken him somewhat, as had, obviously, O'Sullivan's on-the-table performance.

    At the end of that frame, he appeared to be about to concede, either 'early' or on a misunderstanding. This makes the two casual shots a little more understandable if he thought it was the last frame O'Sullivan needed – one is more likely to be resigned to that situation with one's opponent needing just that frame than if he needed one more in addition. (I believe he did have his cue in his hand, which he wouldn't normally do if he was conceding, early or not – so he may simply have been going back to the dressing room to spend the interval there.)

    Nevertheless, it has been pointed out, by David Hendon for one, that he was leaving the arena (which indeed he was – he had his cue in his hand so it was not as if he walked that way just because that's where O'Sullivan was), which suggests that he was consciously intending to concede early.

    It does seem unlikely on the face of it that he would have been unaware of the length of the match; this was his fourth final and NOT his first best-of-19. But the mind can do funny things in funny situations.

    There is also talk that the person in the crowd, who was communicating with, was Chinese, so talk of 'racist' abuse seems unlikely – maybe it was a fellow countryman venting his disappointment that his comrade was about to lose, who knows?

    In any case, I wonder what everyone's opinion is – was he about to deliberately concede early or was it a genuine misunderstanding as to the required score?

    I don't intend to criticise Ding – he is, after all, not fully snooker-mature (that can only come with exdperience) and was playing in new surroundings, at a new level if you like, and one cannot expect miracles. This is completely different from O'Sullivan's walkout in York, a very experienced competitor who was five frames from defeat – but of course O'Sullivan has other issues. Thinking about it, while O'Sullivan's issues are well documented, maybe Ding has some off-table problems of which we are unaware?

    In any case, without criticisms of anyone in particular, what do you think he would have done without O'Sullivan's exceptionally timely, quick-thinking interception (for which he gets a fair amount of thumbs up from me – well actually, I only have two thumbs, of course, but you know what I mean).

  • #2
    IMO he was conceding the match. Ding walked towards Osullivan and wanted to go straight to the dressing room. If he thought it was best of 17 he would have gone back to his chair to wait for the ceremony, which was not his intention at all. I did not notice any abuse towards Ding. It was a normal O'sullivan support as previous years. The shouting out at the end when someone was evicted, was directed to O'sullivan, not to Ding. He was screaming ROS should have never allowed to play in a WSPBA ever again after his walkout in York. His neighbour was warned several minutes before the incident, shouting out: You are not going to walk out now, is it? When ROS replied: if you dont like it, you should leave. It was not the only abuse that happened as i experienced the following:

    On Saturday evening during the Ronnie – Maguire match I was verbally abused and physically threatened from a so called Maguire fan. He was standing behind me during the match, talking all the time and shouting out YES! when Ronnie missed. I looked over my shoulder and then the idiot started to have a go at me. Some real snookerfans got the stewards in and he was warned. Also later during the match he was warned by eireen Williams. It seems Hooliganism is entering snooker as well, although it is only happening at Wembley till now.

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    • #3
      I can't imagine a professional sportsman playing for tens of thousands of pounds would not know how many frames he had to win in order to win the title!

      Having said that misunderstandings can occur. David Gray played Ronnie O' Sullivan (please note full name used Mr.Soave) in the Grand Prix earlier this year and when Ronnie reached 4 frames and had won the match Gray went and sat in his chair and waited for the ref to rack the balls up for the next frame!

      It's hard to tell. However Ding was visibly shaken and did appear to mutter possibly the 'F' word and I think something was said that he did not like.

      In my opinion Ding did give up and concede. At 8-3 down and 50+ points down when he came off the cushion and broke the reds for Ronnie, I thought he'd given up.

      Regarding Soave's point regarding hooliganism, you do get some idiots at matches who are just there for a day out on the p***. I've noticed that at tournaments. But then for every muppet there are 100 true fans.

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      • #4
        In my opinion Ding was about to deliberately concede early. I would in no way criticise him for that though, as it was obviously all far too much for Ding to cope with.

        He's just a young kid. In a foreign country where he's only just beginning to speak the language, away from the support of family and friends. Probaly not made too many friends on the snooker tour (due to language issues) so unlike most players may even not have been prepared or warned about what may be instore from the crowd. He's just seen Ronnie concede in the previous tournament. He's getting slaughtered in a final for the first time. He cannot pot a ball. The crowd there must have been very intimitading for an apparently rather timid 19 year old. No wonder he had had enough.
        "You can shove your snooker up your jacksie 'cos I aint playing no more!" Alex Higgins.

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        • #5
          I think he was indeed conceding. If he wasn't, why would Ronnie O'Sullivan (note full name) pep-talk him and hold his arms around him all the way to the backstage area? If it had been nothing but a misunderstanding, a friendly clap on the back would have sufficed.

          Add this to the what the other posters before me have mentioned and I cannot see how it was just a misunderstanding. But it's ok. Let's call it a misunderstanding, if that's what it takes for Ding Junhui (note full name again) to come back. It's not a biggie.
          Das war ein FLUKE! Ein Glückstreffer!

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          • #6
            My instant reaction was that Ding was about to give up the match early. However if it was a cover-up, it would have been involved the establishment, BBC and even Ronnie too. Ronnie in his post-match interview did say Ding thought it was best of 17. I’m not so certain now. However I wouldn't criticise Ding either way.
            2006 Premier League Prediction Contest Winner

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            • #7
              I too thought initially that he just wanted to get out of there, but I guess we'll never know. I think Ronnie did a great thing in helping him through though, Ding will probably be glad he finished the match, looking back at it now.

              As a fan of his, I would have been disappointed if he conceded purely because of the way the game was going, but the fact that he was receiving persistent abuse from someone close to him was probably a complete shock to Ding, and so I can fully understand why he wanted the match to finish, when you bear in mind he's had no experience of dealing with that kind of abuse, added to the tough time he was having in the match.

              I hope he's ok for forthcoming tournaments, and I hope that idiot in the crowd is never allowed in to a snooker event again.

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              • #8
                Having said that misunderstandings can occur. David Gray played Ronnie O' Sullivan (please note full name used Mr.Soave) in the Grand Prix earlier this year and when Ronnie reached 4 frames and had won the match Gray went and sat in his chair and waited for the ref to rack the balls up for the next frame!
                That's true, but it doesn't mean anything, that was David Gray after all..

                In my opinion Ding was about to deliberately concede early. I would in no way criticise him for that though, as it was obviously all far too much for Ding to cope with.
                I agree 100%.

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                • #9
                  well

                  Well, Ding conceded or not would make no difference to the result of masters, you know that it was an unforgettable experience for Ding,"I don't mind about the opponent who I gonna play in the final, I would only hope to play better."(approximately meant) said Ding, he is a little bit arrogant, and didn't make the best preparation for the final, I think that it is for sure, he is still too young to handle these sorts of stuff despite the crowd, he has to remember he is an INTERNATIONAL SNOOKER PLAYER, although he is only 19, however I wouldn't say this is a galling game for him at all, this was a best lesson for him to be taught in order to become more seasoned for his future way, I don't think this bawbee would beat him up, he will be coming back with whirlwind, and whipped his opponents that's for certain, coz he has unexpected potentials that I've never ever had seen before, well, Come On, young man, I would expect to see him growing faster!

                  After all, I would say, he was not conceding, coz only trust.

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                  • #10
                    It would make more sense if the audience member abusing him was Chinese. In China a lot of people seem to see coming second as abject failure. You've just got to look at Mugello/Dingshots comments to know that winning seven tournaments and being runner up in the other is still failure because you let somebody beat you.

                    Of course it is not every Chinese person that thinks this way but possibly enough for Ding to feel he is letting his country down.

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                    • #11
                      He was definitely conceding, hence the reason why he pointed backwards towards the crowd when walking out of the arena with Ronnie. It was as if he was justifying to Ronnie why he'd had enough...

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                      • #12
                        Originally Posted by chasmmi
                        It would make more sense if the audience member abusing him was Chinese. In China a lot of people seem to see coming second as abject failure. You've just got to look at Mugello/Dingshots comments to know that winning seven tournaments and being runner up in the other is still failure because you let somebody beat you.

                        Of course it is not every Chinese person that thinks this way but possibly enough for Ding to feel he is letting his country down.
                        Good point. Particularly if he had flown over specially to watch it.


                        PS I have added a bit in brackets conceding how he walked off (or was about to), which I forgot to add earlier.

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                        • #13
                          According to what I read from Chinese media, it was some English in the crowd sitting close behind Ding that was disturbing Ding. Ding told people later that he could generally understand what that person was shouting to him all through the night such as simple sentence of "F**** back to China!". Ding also said that he became rather scared in later stage as the hooligan seemed moving closer and closer to him.


                          http://sports.sohu.com/20070123/n247769384.shtml
                          http://sports.sohu.com/20070123/n247770511.shtml



                          Originally Posted by chasmmi
                          It would make more sense if the audience member abusing him was Chinese. In China a lot of people seem to see coming second as abject failure. You've just got to look at Mugello/Dingshots comments to know that winning seven tournaments and being runner up in the other is still failure because you let somebody beat you.

                          Of course it is not every Chinese person that thinks this way but possibly enough for Ding to feel he is letting his country down.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally Posted by The Statman
                            . This is completely different from O'Sullivan's walkout in York, a very experienced competitor who was five frames from defeat – but of course O'Sullivan has other issues. Thinking about it, while O'Sullivan's issues are well documented, maybe Ding has some off-table problems of which we are unaware?
                            I disagree statman. Personally I don't think you should be allowed to concede a match with frames left to play - Jimmy and Ken Doherty will tell you all about being almost over the line but then losing it. I think the issue is still that you deny your opponent the satisfaction of a true victory and with it the confidence/form boost - it takes the shine off a victory, especially in a final. I don't think you can use the excuse of Ding not being fully mature either- he's won 3 tournaments already and represented his country in the Asian Games - he certainly knows what the game requires now.

                            I'm a well-documented O'Sullivan fan but I think, subject to whatever personal problems, he should be censured for it. Likewise had Ding Junhui done the same I would expect similar treatment. Can you imagine what would have been said had Ronnie won last night by default? People would start sentences with 'if Ding hadn;t walked out' and every discussion of 'the marvellous victory' would come with an 'although...'

                            hopefully there'll be a rule change to prevent early concessions. If you're not fit to play, say so, otherwise only medical reasons should stop a frame- imagine people having flown from Australia to see a match which ends up going 2 frames!

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                            • #15
                              I agree, you have to sweat it out. If its victory you want to inhale all the glory. If you are on the losing side, you have to take it on the chin (which i almost got on saturday evening). I do sincerely understand his emotions and feelings to pack it in. I even have that attitude myself if i am losing like last wednesday, but hes a pro and I am not. That is the difference. and he is 19 years. So, i will give him the benefit of the doubt! I probably would have knocked my cue on the culprits head if i would be 19 and being in his position.

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