Ali Carter v Judd Trump

[breakman16]

my respect for trump went up in that session.

mine too, I hope he learns to tone down some of his ridiculous thrashing of the balls and some of his long pots and play safe more, hopefully with maturity he will do, otherwise he'll be very erratic and will dramatically underachieve, a bit like o'sullivan!!

[BarryH]

mine too, I hope he learns to tone down some of his ridiculous thrashing of the balls and some of his long pots and play safe more

When he's playing well they go in and he wins and it's breathtaking. That's why we like to watch him. Your comment reminds me of Alex Higgins saying in disbelief "Why would anyone want to be like Eddie Charlton?"

[johnsusername]

my respect for trump went up in that session.

And my respect for Carter has gone down. I used to really like Ali, but over the last year...I don't know. The whole "woe is me I don't like snooker any more" schtick annoyed me (as it does with O'Sullivan).

The sarcastic handclap was bad sportsmanship, as was the Tweet "Luck Trump" - and then he has the gall to criticise Trump for bad "etiquette"!

How can he criticise Trump for whacking balls about? If that's the way he wants to play the game, then who are you to tell him otherwise? And how can you actually criticise someone for being lucky? It's not as if they're being lucky on purpose!

[Neil Taperell]

I don't think the etiquette complaint was about the way he plays the game . I believe it was down to not apologising for a fluke Trump made .

[eaoin11]

Don't want to offend anyone and I might feel differently if I saw him live but I just don't get excited about Trump's game. I'm genuinely more interested in watching guys who keep it tight like O'Sullivan, Higgins, Ding Junhui etc.

[johnsusername]

Don't want to offend anyone and I might feel differently if I saw him live but I just don't get excited about Trump's game. I'm genuinely more interested in watching guys who keep it tight like O'Sullivan, Higgins, Ding Junhui etc.

Does O'Sullivan keep it as tight as the others you mention?

Each to his own. I love most aspects of the game - Judd's game excites me simply because it is still quite raw. I also love Robbo's more rounded matchplay. For me there's room for all styles in the game. Variety is the spice of life as they say!

[ThePhantomPotter]

it was a hugely entertaining match. best of the tournament so far and the bit of needle between them added to it.

i was on carter's side throughout. there something about trump that comes across as if he thinks he deserves to win. when he's on top form he's unbeatable but carter outplayed him with some graet matchplay snooker. not drawn out by any means, just by being tough and playing tactically. hence why he got annoyed at the fluke snooker. the mock clapping was a bit over-the-top but trump never apologises and his supporters clap every fluke as if he played it that way.

you could see trump was having problems holding himself together, though he got it back well when playing for the snookers. you could say the match marked the end of the honeymoon period for him. 12 months ago he couldn't put a foot wrong and now he's been sent packing and licking his wounds. a learning experience to be sure.

[doorag]

Fortune sometimes favours the brave, and when it doesn't no one notices.

Both Hendry and Trump had been accused of always being lucky. It's the dullest discussion in snooker when it all boils down to probability in the end.

[DeanH]

I don't think the etiquette complaint was about the way he plays the game . I believe it was down to not apologising for a fluke Trump made .

It has been discussed before on TSF that Trump does not seem to acknowledge an opponent's good shot (the tap on the table, etc.) or apologise for a fluke (a sorry or wave of the hand to the opponent).

it was a hugely entertaining match. best of the tournament so far and the bit of needle between them added to it.

i was on carter's side throughout. there something about trump that comes across as if he thinks he deserves to win. when he's on top form he's unbeatable but carter outplayed him with some graet matchplay snooker. not drawn out by any means, just by being tough and playing tactically. hence why he got annoyed at the fluke snooker. the mock clapping was a bit over-the-top but trump never apologises and his supporters clap every fluke as if he played it that way.

you could see trump was having problems holding himself together, though he got it back well when playing for the snookers. you could say the match marked the end of the honeymoon period for him. 12 months ago he couldn't put a foot wrong and now he's been sent packing and licking his wounds. a learning experience to be sure.

Agreed, a very entertaining match, Ali did very well to get the last 4 frames, the sarcastic hand clap was maybe too much when a sorrowful shake of the head with a smile would have done better But I am sure Ali was just so p***ed off with how many "flukes" Judd had had throughtout the session

It was interesting to see Trump's mental anguish after that missed red with the rest. And as you say he did come back to form for the snookers at the very end. He said in the BBC interview that he was disappointed in how he handled the pressure at that point, a good learning point in his game for him to go away and reflect on.

[nrage]

Fortune sometimes favours the brave, and when it doesn't no one notices.

Both Hendry and Trump had been accused of always being lucky. It's the dullest discussion in snooker when it all boils down to probability in the end.

Indeed. Nothing happens on the table that you don't make happen with how you play the shot. If you hit balls hard you will always have more chance of "fluking" balls in random pockets, and if you can control the white at the same time you decrease the chance you'll go in-off, which is normally the other consequence of hitting too hard. Getting accidental fluke snookers, or leaving things safe is a bit harder to explain, but perhaps hitting with more pace sends more balls to the cushions more often or something. All in all, it's the way he is hitting the ball that's causing all the "random" effects, not some nefarious luck fairy.

[johnsusername]

I thought the cameraman was lingering on Judd a bit too much in the last frame. You could see the lad was distraught - it was a bit voyeuristic.

Anyway, agree with most of the posts - good match, some great frames, well done Ali. Hopefully the needle will make them rivals for a few years, could set up a few classic contests!

[cueman]

Indeed. Nothing happens on the table that you don't make happen with how you play the shot. If you hit balls hard you will always have more chance of "fluking" balls in random pockets, and if you can control the white at the same time you decrease the chance you'll go in-off, which is normally the other consequence of hitting too hard. Getting accidental fluke snookers, or leaving things safe is a bit harder to explain, but perhaps hitting with more pace sends more balls to the cushions more often or something. All in all, it's the way he is hitting the ball that's causing all the "random" effects, not some nefarious luck fairy.

I don't buy into this perception because with snooker the more control you have over the balls, the more your chances of success. The way Judd plays relies more heavily on luck than any other player on the circuit, he's a basher and 9 times out of 10 a lot of his breaks end up requiring one or two very good pots to recover lost position because of the way he plays. Now his potting is IMO the best of any other player on the circuit, so what he is doing is playing a brand of snooker that hasn't really been seen before.

Now whether Judd changes his style over the years only he will decide, but matches like yesterday showed why he can't play his style of snooker and expect success all the time. The reason players take offence to his style of play is because they know the shots and know the luck needed sometimes to pull them off, hence Ali's reaction to the snooker Judd got, it was another lash out which spread the reds and landed as a snooker. You say that Judd played the shot so random things can happen but would you do that knowing full well that you leave your opponent on everytime? Of course you wouldn't and the chances of getting away with it are probably about 2 in 10!

So in theory Judd is playing a game relying more upon luck than judgement than any other player on the circuit and that is a fact.

[nrage]

I don't buy into this perception ...

Which perception do you mean?

The reason players take offence to his style of play is because they know the shots and know the luck needed sometimes to pull them off, hence Ali's reaction to the snooker Judd got, it was another lash out which spread the reds and landed as a snooker. You say that Judd played the shot so random things can happen but would you do that knowing full well that you leave your opponent on everytime? Of course you wouldn't and the chances of getting away with it are probably about 2 in 10!

This particular shot was probably purely luck and nothing else. I'm not sure he could have decided to play the shot in any particular way to make the result he got more likely.

But, the thing to remember is that playing that many frames you're likely to get one, and sometimes more cases of pure luck. Yes, this was a big, flashy and timely example of it, but think about it.. if you /never/ play a big flashy risky shot your chance of getting a lucky break playing one is zero, it can't happen.

So, players that never take a chance like that, will never get a lucky break like that, and might therefore appear to be less lucky. But, in fact they just take less risks. They still get lucky outcomes, but you might not even notice when it happens because they're so minor in comparison to this one.

So in theory Judd is playing a game relying more upon luck than judgement than any other player on the circuit and that is a fact.

I think it's a bit harsh to say his game "relies" on luck, it doesn't, it relies on potting. He just gets some luck. Does he get more than other players, no, but he does play more shots where a bit of luck is blindingly obvious so it might appear so at first glance.

[montoya10]

I think it's a bit harsh to say his game "relies" on luck, it doesn't, it relies on potting. He just gets some luck. Does he get more than other players, no, but he does play more shots where a bit of luck is blindingly obvious so it might appear so at first glance.

His game doesn't rely on luck. Judd himself relies on his luck. He hits and hopes that balls are going to end up in a good position for him. Yes, I agree that other players get their fair share of luck, as well. But just as you said, there is a real difference between the presence of luck.
Thinking back about the match, you may or you may not remember the moments Carter got lucky. I do remember a couple of positions, but even those were minor helps from the table in general.
But counting on Trump's lucky moments is a lot more easier. It's simple. If you hit the balls hard, you really have no control over the balls and there is a fair chance you'll end up lucky.
It's not Trump's mistake to be lucky. But it's certainly his choice to have hope on the run of balls in those kind of situations.

[breakman16]

Bottom line is Trump needs to become more like Robertson, takes long shots on, but weighs up the risks and rewards, and can play safe too (as he definitely can), his tactical game is perfectly adequate after all, if he doesnt do that then he will vastly under achieve in the game, he's already has success of course, but he needs to tone down this playing "naughty snooker" brand thing he's got going, I love to see players achieve their full potential at anything, and the way Judd plays at the moment he can't possibly do that!