Uses for ivory balls

[philip in china]

Somebody once told me that the white rings on bagpipe pipes used to be made out of ivory. He said that bagpipe makers would buy old billiard balls and turn them down in a lathe. Does anybody know if this is true or was he joking? I also believe that any working of ivory might be illegal in UK also importing (probably exporting as well) any ivory product including antique snooker balls.

Comments anybody??

[andy carson]

if they were made before a certain date its legal to buy or sell.

[Geoff Large]

if they were made before a certain date its legal to buy or sell.

Under CITES and Defra it is ilegal to REWORK ivory . and also to use ivory sourced from animals after 1947 I think ?

you can only sell ivory balls as Billiard and snooker collectables , if you sell them Knowing they will be reworked into ivory bagpipe rings then you can also be prosecuted .
I always sell any ivory balls I come across as Billiard or snooker collectables and insist that the buyer knows this , what they do with them after this is upto them .

some antique restorers apply for licence to use Mammoth ivory and pre 1947 ivory to restore say ivory knobs or inserts in furniture of small boxes and chests , and Japanese ivory figures etc .
if you do not have this licence then you are working outside the law of CITES and Defra agreement .

and yes Bagpipe repairers and makers have in the past used ivory billiard and snooker balls to rework as ivory rings on the bagpipe tube's.. in the past it was perfectly legal to do this , not so Today .
A licence to rework is only given out sparingly and I doub't that Bagpipe rings come into important antiques for restoration .

Have alook at this link ( http://www.politics.co.uk/Microsites.../elephants.pdf ) scroll down to page 18 and see what CITES and Defra veiw of the legality of Bagpipe rings .

and take note of this forum ( http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...ry-and-the-law... ) note he underlines in RED once an Antique item has been REWORKED it loses it's EXEMPTION.

It sure is a Legal minefield when selling Ivory in the UK so always best cover youreself when Selling pre 1947 ivory billiard and snooker balls always sell them with a reciept and sign it stating you are aware they are pre 1947 and sold as Billiard and snooker collectables , make two copy's and get the buyer to sign it also for youre proof to any authority who come's knocking that you sold them in good faith and as collectables . even email corspondance is proof if selling them on line .

[lewis_tudor]

hello guys i have an ArrowFlight table with a set of balls but how do you tell if they are ivory or not?

[lewis_tudor]

Arrowflite is a Burroughes and Watts table isnt it?

[Geoff Large]

I think you are getting confused Arrow flight is a Branding of a Rerubber by Buroughs and watts , just like Elston and Hopkin used to put a plaque on the end cushions after a rerubber called the Empire Match cushion .
have a closer look at that Arrow flight end plaque it will say Arrow flight CUSHIONS and is just advertising that burroughs and watts have done a rerubber on the table and they Branded it the rubber Arrow flight cushion .
the table may not even be a Burroughs and watts Table, I know of an orme and sons that has a Arrow flight cushion Plaque on one end .

these Days UK Trading standards will not allow Northern rubbered cushions to be Branded as an own make Rerubber .
and they will also not allow cue's to sold in Ounces anymore , due to Drying out of the wood which mean they can lose wieght during the time it is made to Day of sale .

L/M/H is the way you describe a cue's wieght these days .

Ivory has a Grain like wood to it , unmistakable is the cross hatch graining at each pole end .
also the colour is a stain which is just on the outside of the ball which will fade in time , beware some Bonzaline balls are often mistaken for ivory beacuse they crack and craze like old ivory .
if you are not unsure post a close up picture of the ball and I will look to see if they are ivory or not .


Geoff

[lewis_tudor]

ahh okay thanks Geoff so how do i tell what table it actually is?

how can you tell if your snooker balls are ivory??

Lewis

[philip in china]

Isn't the law great! So elephants die, with ivory in their head, but it can't be used for anything. That must keep the price of the illegal stuff good and high.

[Geoff Large]

ahh okay thanks Geoff so how do i tell what table it actually is?

how can you tell if your snooker balls are ivory??

Lewis

reread last section of my last post . for ivory balls

and unless youre table has another makers plate on it, a picture of the table may help identify the maker , due to say shape of leg , or type of pocket plate etc .
but post a picture , by the way is the end plaque of Arrow flight as I said and just states a CUSHION ? something like staright as an Arrow in writing on it as well ? with a archers target bulls eye and an arrow flying towards it ?
all old billiard firms put a end plaque ( plate ) on the other end of the table away from the makers palaque , and all had a name for their rerubbered cushions , Arrow flight was just one that Burroughs and watts used .

original Burroughs and watts name plate should look like the one in the photo's on this link , this is a table manufacturers plate not a rerubber plate , note the much older one below it at the base of the mount .

http://thecueguru.weebly.com/cue-labels.html

[lewis_tudor]

okay i looked lol and i dont think my balls are ivory! how ever i could only find 1 plate on my table, its says: RILEY BURWAT LIMITED (rb. logo to the right) ARROWFLITE (arrow tip and flight at each end) then below RE-REUBBERED CUSHIONS

can you tell me any more about the table?

thanks
Lewis

[Geoff Large]

okay i looked lol and i dont think my balls are ivory! how ever i could only find 1 plate on my table, its says: RILEY BURWAT LIMITED (rb. logo to the right) ARROWFLITE (arrow tip and flight at each end) then below RE-REUBBERED CUSHIONS

can you tell me any more about the table?

thanks
Lewis

You just have a Rerubber plate on the table so I cannot identify or comment on what it may or may not be without a Photo . it could be any brand , Thurston / Orme / B & watts etc, just because it has a burwat name plate on it , you cannot say for 100% that it is a B & watts or even a Riley .
I for instance have rerubbered many tables and put our Elston & Hopkin plate goldsmith street and later on Newark street , The makers name plate was always left on the original end cushion though , some people take the plate off or it may have been stolen , Some say they have a elston and hopkin table when they see our Empire Match cushion plate on the table , but that can never be as we never made Full size tables .
But our original founding company did , they where called John Gent of convent street nottingham who Elston used to work for before he took it over , and I have an original table catalogue of Gents from that period . 1870 to 1930 .

E J Riley bought out Burroughs and watts , 1967 was the year that happened and they became joint branded RileyBurwat , they dropped the burwat off the end and went back to a modern Rileys Logo in the Snooker boom years of the late 70s to early 1980s . so youre Burwat rerubber plate is from period 1967 to 1979 .
the table will be older than this . but do not know what make it is .

send me a photo to c.large@btinternet.com

I will be away in southwest France from Sunday until thursday setting a very heavy B&Watts oak table up with steel block cushions , it is going to be a right job as we have to fork lift the slates to an upstairs opening in the Brickwork . but I will get back to you if you send me a Photo .

Geoff