Joe Davis - defeats on level terms

[nigej]

I have read that Joe only lost 4 times when playing on level terms, all to Fred, but I've never seen any details. Except in the World Championship, Joe didn't often play on level terms. If we restrict ourselves to tournaments (as opposed to exhibition matches) I can find:

1948 Sunday Empire News Tournament - Fred beat Joe 36-35 playing on level terms, although Joe received 2 frames under the "sealed handicap" aspect of the event, winning 37-36. The "Western Daily Press" reports that "Fred Davis ... became the first player to defeat his brother, Joe, on level terms, in a competition when he finished 36 frames to 35 ahead in the "Sunday Empire News Tournament" £1,000 tournament ...", so I'm assuming this is the first of the four.

1951/1952 News of the World Snooker Tournament - Fred beat Joe 20-17 in the final match.

1953/1954 News of the World Snooker Tournament - Fred beat Joe 21-16 in the final match.

1958 News of the World Snooker Tournament - This tournament was not handicapped. Joe lost 4 matches, 3 to Fred and 1 to Walter Donaldson. These matches were 1-day best-of-13.

1959 News of the World Snooker Plus Tournament - Joe lost a match 15-10 to Fred but I'm assuming this wouldn't count, being a Snooker Plus match.

Any ideas?

[nigej]

"The Times" for 28 March 1949 has "F Davis beat his brother J Davis at Leicester Square Hall on Saturday by 37 games to 34 in a week's match. It was second time in three months that F Davis had beaten his brother on level terms, a feat no other player has accomplished in 25 years."

[DeanH]

I believe the NOTW event was all level terms and Joe also lost to the following:
1950 News Of The World Tournament
Albert Brown

1951 News Of The World Tournament
John Pulman
Alec Brown
Fred Davis


1952 News Of The World Tournament
John Barrie
Alec Brown
John Pulman
Sidney Smith
Fred Davis

1954 News Of The World Tournament
Albert Brown
John Pulman
Fred Davis


1955 News Of The World Tournament
John Barrie
Jackie Rea

1956 News Of The World Tournament
Walter Donaldson

1957 News Of The World Tournament
Fred Davis
Walter Donaldson
John Pulman
Jackie Rea

[nigej]

The 1958 and 1959 NoTW were not handicapped. All the earlier ones were handicapped and in these Joe only ever played level with Fred and Walter Donaldson. See the Wikipedia articles.

[DeanH]

you are right there
you are discounting challenge matches, hence there are not many other events at that time

[nigej]

That's really what I'm trying to find out. Does the oft-quoted four times on level terms relate to competitions or does it include exhibition matches. In exhibition matches he nearly always seems to have given a start, even if just 7 points.

[DeanH]

I had not heard this quote but I doubt it is true, even in your first post you have more than 4 losses in level terms matches
(not counting the Snooker Plus match :wink

[nigej]

Wikipedia article says "and an entire career which contained only 4 defeats off level terms, all of which came in later life and all of which were inflicted by his own brother" Newspaper article here http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...odern_snooker/ says "He was officially beaten on level terms just four times in his life, once by his young brother, Fred. Cynics claim he rarely played anyone, outside of championships, without giving them a few blacks of a start, thus ensuring his record would remain intact if he should lose." ("once" here is a little odd) http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/coaching/...d_you_know.htm says "Joe Davis was beaten only four times on level terms throughout the duration of his career."

The Wikipedia article on Fred says "Fred would go on to have the distinction of being the only player to beat Joe on level terms (albeit outside of the world championship as Joe retired from championship play in 1947), a feat he achieved four times between 1948 and 1954." quoting a reference of "Everton, Clive., Guinness Book of Billiards and Snooker, 1982, p. 60." and, as we know, if Clive Everton says it, it must be true. I've only just noticed this and perhaps indicates that the 3 long matches in my first post + the exhibition match noted in my second post, are the four referred to. Presumably the 13-frame 1-day matches in 1958 are swept under the carpet.

[DeanH]

be careful on what you read on Wikipedia :wink:
I think the quote is incorrect, even your first post shows more than four losses by more than just Fred (you also have Walter Donaldson ), maybe the quote is for losses by Fred only?

There is some evidence that Joe would not accept matches, often by pushing up the stakes to play him.

[Cyril]

Joe would afford the honour of playing him off level only to the current World Champion. The handicaps given to the rest of the field ranged from 7 points (one black) to 30 points per frame.

Regarding the defeat to Donaldson in the NOTW tounament, Joe wouldn't have deemed that a proper match being as it was, a mere 13 frames.

I can't remember the year, but they changed the format of the NOTW from 5 day to 2 day matches. Fred Davis refused to enter citing that 2 day matches were an insufficient test of ability between top professionals. In the 1970's however, he was keen enough to play in the "best of 1 frame" Pot Black! Funny how times change.

[Sitting Room Snooker]

In 'The Story Of A Champion', available on You Tube, Joe mentions he only ever lost to one player, Fred, in a level tournament game. He could have been referring to a straight knockout game. Excellent documentary BTW, half an hour+ c1977 it looks like.

[Sitting Room Snooker]

The caption, when you go on You Tube is of Tommy Trinder, confusingly!

[Cyril]

In 'The Story Of A Champion', available on You Tube, Joe mentions he only ever lost to one player, Fred, in a level tournament game. He could have been referring to a straight knockout game. Excellent documentary BTW, half an hour+ c1977 it looks like.

It is a great program and contains some classic footage too. I like the contributions by his brother professionals, John Pulman, Rex Williams, Syd Lee and of course, Fred.

Going back to the original post. It is fair to say that after retiring from the World Championship in 1946 Joe would rarely have played anyone level. He would only play the World Champion off level. So that was Donaldson in 1947 and 1950 (which he did and beat him easily); and Fred in 1948,49,51,52,53,54,55 and 56. They may have played one match following the official Championship final and then once in the NOTW (Fred didn't enter in 1950). They would not have counted a 1-day match either.

So in conclusion to the above, after 1946, Joe probably played a proper match against Donaldson on level twice and Fred around 15 times, losing 3 or 4 of those to Fred and winning the rest.

[nigej]

I think that must be right. The one-day matches weren't counted.

Even before the war Joe was in habit of giving at least 7 points. The only player who was close to him at that time was Horace Lindrum, who was gave Davis a run for his money in the early days after he came here in late 1935.

[Cyril]

I think it's a pity Joe decided to retire from World Championship play in 1946. He continued to improve his game and develop new break building methods throughout his career and was certainly at his most prolific in century break making in the early to mid 1950's. He stated in 1946 that he didn't think it was right for one man to dominate the championship but the result was that it devalued the championship. Even though Fred was World Champion for most of the next 10 years, he was never accepted as the best, because no matter what he did that title remained with Joe. Just think of the great battles they could have had if Joe had continued throughout the 50's. He could have won another ten titles and Fred, on the balance of their play, in all probability would've won maybe 2 or 3. Donaldson is unlikely to have won any.