hit black with rest

[davis_greatest]

good of you to thank them despite not having a definite answer!

does no one have the rules of snooker?

i really want to know the answer

The Statman has already given the answer. This is covered by Section 2, Rule 6 (c) "A stroke is not completed until all balls have come to rest."

While it does not explicitly state that a stroke is completed once all balls have come to rest, this would seem a fair assumption of what was intended by the rule-writer.

The original post does not give sufficient information to answer whether the yellow should be respotted, since it only states that the cue [ball] had come to rest, and not whether all the other balls had also come to rest. If we assume that all balls had come to rest, then the stroke on the yellow was completed before the foul took place and so the yellow remains off the table. Foul 7 on the green.

[wildJONESEYE]

it is not a fair assumption because the player did not take out the rest to play the green the rest was taken out with 1 aim and that aim was to pot the yellow.therefore until that rest was taken from the shot on the yellow the green ball was not in play.

in my opinion the yellow should be re spotted.

[RGCirencester]

but what if you then require the rest for the green? in that instance would you have addressed the green instantly when the balls have stopped? Because you do not put the rest away and then get it out again for the next shot, sometimes it never even leaves the bed of the table. In my opinion the only interpretation that can be uniformly applied to all situations is the statman and davis greatest. i believe once the balls have come to rest the shot is considered over. Anything occuring after the fact should be considered a foul on the green.
This is a very interesting situation and when i first read the original post i must admit never expected this depth of discussion. My personal opinion is the shot is over the moment the balls come to rest.

[wildJONESEYE]

but what if you then require the rest for the green? in that instance would you have addressed the green instantly when the balls have stopped? Because you do not put the rest away and then get it out again for the next shot, sometimes it never even leaves the bed of the table. In my opinion the only interpretation that can be uniformly applied to all situations is the statman and davis greatest. i believe once the balls have come to rest the shot is considered over. Anything occuring after the fact should be considered a foul on the green.
This is a very interesting situation and when i first read the original post i must admit never expected this depth of discussion. My personal opinion is the shot is over the moment the balls come to rest.

if he hit the black while taking the rest away from the shot on the yellow it means he hadent even looked at the green ball angle for the pot.

when taking the rest away its the players responsability.

i think its a scenario thats not even in the rules but from my perspective its the same as using a spider over a colour to pot the yellow if you caught the black on the follow through and potted the yellow....the yellow is put back on the spot.

[RGCirencester]

on the follow through certainly that is a foul. but once the balls have come to rest as in this example i would say the shot is over. it is not uncommon to see both the yellow and green potted with the rest, sometimes without the player even moving from the spot they are standing. At what point does the shot on the green begin? If you take a half hour break, leaving the rest on the table, and then touch the black when putting it away is that still a foul on the yellow?
My personal opinion is the shot is over the moment the balls come to rest, but maybe this is a situation where the referee should use thier own discretion? For instance if you were potting the yellow cuing using the rest very close to another ball such as the green and you played the shot perfectly, then the balls come to rest and as you take the cue away you move the green a fraction, would the foul be on the yellow or green? To the original post i would instantly assume it to be a foul on the green, however in this situation i would take more time to think about it, and may even decide it to be a foul on the yellow.

[DawRef]

As a referee, I would foul the player 7 points (the rest hit the black) and re-spot the yellow:

Section 2 Rule 6(c): A stroke is not completed until all the balls have come to rest.

So, because the striker hit the black with the rest, not all the balls had stopped moving (technical I know), therefore it is a foul of 7 and the yellow is re-spotted.

Had the striker left the rest on the table whilst studying the next stroke, then picked up the rest and hit the black, he would have been credited with 2 points for the yellow and deducted 7 points for the rest hitting the black (not 4).

[davis_greatest]

So, because the striker hit the black with the rest, not all the balls had stopped moving (technical I know), therefore it is a foul of 7 and the yellow is.

Why do you say that not all the balls had stopped moving? The original post said "when returning rest he made contact with the black" - I took this to mean that the black was stationary and the rest was then moved to hit the black, rather than the black was travelling around the table and struck the rest.

[PaulTheSoave]

Was your brother on a break of 120 when this occurred? It would have really p@ssed me off!

hi
i have a difference of opinon we my brother about a foul made in one our recent games, can anyone tell me the right descision, while on the yellow with no reds left he potted the yellow while using the rest and cue came to rest after pot but when returning rest he made contact with the black. i said it was foul 7 points and yellow re spotted while he said foul 7 points and yellow stays down ,can anyone tell me which is right
thanks::snooker:

[davb1]

hi
i have a difference of opinon we my brother about a foul made in one our recent games, can anyone tell me the right descision, while on the yellow with no reds left he potted the yellow while using the rest and cue came to rest after pot but when returning rest he made contact with the black. i said it was foul 7 points and yellow re spotted while he said foul 7 points and yellow stays down ,can anyone tell me which is right
thanks::snooker:

7 point foul & re spot yellow

[DawRef]

I have been in contact with a referee (professional) friend who has advised that it is a foul of seven points, but as all balls have come to rest (Section 2, rule 6(c)), the yellow remains off of the table. However, they are going to ask a few colleagues for their opinion, as it is/could be an ambiguous case. I'll re-post accordingly.

[desie]

thanks,look foward to answer, didnt think it would spark so much intrest

[Z-E-N-I-T]

Yea, i posted this situation on a czech snooker forum and everybody's discussing it . I promised I let them know. I, as well, am curious.

[Z-E-N-I-T]

Is there any way to contact Mr Verhaas to ask his opinion as he is one of the biggest authorities?

[Krypton]

Either you are moving the rest to play a rest shot onto the green, or the yellow must be respotted. Removing the rest is part of the shot onto the yellow, no matter if there are balls moving or not.
The rules say that a shot (earliest) can not be complete before all the balls have come to rest - that does NOT AT ALL mean that every shot IS complete after the balls stopped. Removing equipement IS part of the shot.

It does not matter whether you hit the black with the rest or touch the blue with your waist after potting yellow: foul, yellow respotted!

Imagine this:

earlier in the frame, with reds left, you play a difficult black with the extended rest or spider even. you play on black, get it, the cueball nudges several reds in the pack - your intention. all balls stop. Removing the rest, you touch the pack/a red with it. This is foul 7, the black won't count.

According to people saying the yellow should count, this would be a foul 4 only, because the black was "completed", and the player should get 7 points - but that is nonsense. Removing the rest makes clearly part of the shot onto black, as with all the reds scattered there is no way the player can argue "i was to play a red with that mess of a rest "

[The Statman]

Imagine this:

earlier in the frame, with reds left, you play a difficult black with the extended rest or spider even. you play on black, get it, the cueball nudges several reds in the pack - your intention. all balls stop. Removing the rest, you touch the pack/a red with it. This is foul 7, the black won't count.

According to people saying the yellow should count, this would be a foul 4 only, because the black was "completed", and the player should get 7 points - but that is nonsense. Removing the rest makes clearly part of the shot onto black, as with all the reds scattered there is no way the player can argue "i was to play a red with that mess of a rest "

That is absolutely correct – the black counts and the foul is on the next ball.

Suppose it wasn't the rest. Suppose you pot the black, cue-ball goes into the reds, all balls stop moving and as you're going round the table to play your next shot you drop your chalk onto the green. The black shot has been legally completed and you are entitled to score for it.