Impossible snooker?

[mooneyy]

First of all this passage of the rules state clearly that you are allowed to nominate whichever ball you want, unless there is an impossible snooker covering a ball you possibly could nominate.

11. Ball On
Any ball which may be lawfully struck by the first impact of the cue-ball, or any ball which may not be so struck but which may be potted, is said to be on.

And according to the following and assuming it was possible to directly hit the black from the described position (so the black actually would be considered the effective snookering ball) you actually could play towards the black and the ref couldn't call a miss as long as you hit it strong enough.

The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on. If the referee considers the Rule infringed, he shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless only the Black remains on the table, or a situation exists where it is impossible to hit the ball on. In the latter case it must be assumed the striker is attempting to hit the ball on provided that he plays, directly or indirectly, in the direction of the ball on with sufficient strength, in the referee’s opinion, to have reached the ball on but the obstructing ball or balls.

[The Statman]

Mooneyy, was that a reply to my post number 15?

I was referring to the Red being the ball on. The 'effective snookering ball' is immaterial unless after a free ball. In any case, I was referring to the three colours surrounding the white leaving no way out, even to the black.

Even so, if the black were hittable, I would still be minded to call a Miss if he played directly towards the black because he would unequivocally find the pink and blue both also in the way.

Not 100% sure; I stated it as an argument and not necessarily a correct answer!

[mooneyy]

Yeah, kind of. I'm not sure about this neither. I just think it doesn't matter
what is in the way to the ball on. According to the rules as soon as a shot is
impossible, no miss can be called as long as you strike the cueball in the direction
of the ball on with sufficient strength.

And if there is no way out the baulk colours surrounding the cueball, such a
situation is given.

Again, I'm not sure. Just another argument

cheers

[AndrewB]

If the cue ball was surrounded by reds after potting a red, what is the penalty in points? Is it max at 7, or could you elect the yellow for example as the ball on?

I remember this happening to Steve Davis once - he nominated the black (which was the nearest colour) for a foul of 7.

[vmax4steve]

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago. Two reds left in baulk, my opponent pots a red, then attempts the blue, misses it and the cue ball jaws in the corner pocket and creeps very slowly behind the pink which is a balls width off the top cushion.

This left me attempting the last red in baulk with the cue ball touching the pink and the top cushion about six inches from the corner pocket.
The cue ball can only be played directly into each corner pocket, otherwise I will move the pink.
I point this out to the ref and ask him what he would do if I just played the cue ball along the cushion so as not to move the pink. He said it would be foul and a deliberate miss and in this case he would replace the balls.

I thought about it for a couple of minutes and then played the cue ball by pushing it into the cushion so as not to move the pink, making it look like I had made a serious attempt at the last red, even though I couldn't possibly hit it.
This was a deliberate foul but I had no choice, cue ball ended up near the blue which was near its spot, snookering my opponent on the last red.

Ref called foul and gave four points to my opponent and a free ball, I lost the frame from there.

[APK]

Think about the impossible snooker this way-
You must attempt to hit a ball 'on' to the best of your ability.
If any one of the balls causing the impossible snooker were removed, could you still attempt the same shot and expect it to be considered a fair attempt?
If the answer is no, then I would call Foul and Miss without hesitation.
Another thing to remember is that after potting a red, the ball on is colour. It is up to the striker to make a sensible declaration as to which one they are attempting to hit.

[DawRef]

I point this out to the ref and ask him what he would do if I just played the cue ball along the cushion so as not to move the pink. He said it would be foul and a deliberate miss and in this case he would replace the balls.

The referee was wrong to do this. He is not allowed to tell a player if that player is about to make a foul stroke (Section 5 rule 1(b)(ii)). You should have played the stroke and waited for the referee to make his decision. Hope he wasn't a qualified ref.

[vmax4steve]

The referee was wrong to do this. He is not allowed to tell a player if that player is about to make a foul stroke (Section 5 rule 1(b)(ii)). You should have played the stroke and waited for the referee to make his decision. Hope he wasn't a qualified ref.

No, it was a league match and he was a member of the opposing team.
What I pointed out was that it was an impossible snooker and I only had two possible routes for the cue ball to travel, ie, straight along the top cushion towards either corner pocket to avoid moving the pink.

The shot that I did play, pushing the cue ball into the cushion to avoid moving the pink, is that considered a foul because it is a push shot ? is it a foul for some other reason ? or is it not a foul ?
I ask this because should a situation arise where I can get out of a snooker by playing this shot, I'd like to know if the shot is legal.

[The Statman]

No, it was a league match and he was a member of the opposing team.
What I pointed out was that it was an impossible snooker and I only had two possible routes for the cue ball to travel, ie, straight along the top cushion towards either corner pocket to avoid moving the pink.

The shot that I did play, pushing the cue ball into the cushion to avoid moving the pink, is that considered a foul because it is a push shot ? is it a foul for some other reason ? or is it not a foul ?
I ask this because should a situation arise where I can get out of a snooker by playing this shot, I'd like to know if the shot is legal.

I presume you are talking about the cue-ball being against the cushion, with a colour touching it, at an angle of 90º to the cushion.

I am not certain whether a route playing 'into' the cushion is by definition a push shot, but I suspect it might be. If the cue-ball goes on to hit the correct object ball, then of course it cannot be called a Miss because you did not miss – push shot or no push shot.

[mooneyy]

I also think that it'd be a push shot since the tip will almost certainly be in
contact with the cue-ball after it "has commenced its forward motion".

[vmax4steve]

I also think that it'd be a push shot since the tip will almost certainly be in
contact with the cue-ball after it "has commenced its forward motion".

I believe the rules state that a push shot is when the tip of the cue, the cue ball and the object ball are in contact and moving at the same time.
If this is true, then pushing the cue ball into the cushion would not be deemed a push shot as there is no object ball in contact with the cue ball.
Is there another definition of a push shot that carries over from Billiards when the butt of the cue used to be used to push or slide the cue ball along the table ?

[davis_greatest]

The definition in the rules is that:

"A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion, or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball."

Unfortunately, the definition is nonsense since almost every, if not every, shot falls under (a) if it is interpreted literally - certainly all shots where any degree of spin is imparted to the cue ball. How it is interpreted in practice is "...for too long after the cue ball has commenced its forward motion", where "too long" is a matter of judgement but may perhaps be of the order of a second.