Free ball then snookered by free ball

[Ricky2112]

hi,
i was playing match tonight and there was 2 reds left which were not together. I had a free ball from the D, I took the blue, tried to roll in into the middle and it hit the jaw and came between one of the reds and the white.I said to my opponent I think that this is a foul because the blue has came between the red and the white full ball snooker. He said he didn’t think so because he could hit the other red. I gave him 4 points as I wasn’t sure.
What is the rule in this situation when the free ball colour comes between a red and white when there is multiple reds on the table?
I know if it had only been the one red left it was a definite foul and a free ball back to him.


cheers
Ricky

[itsnoteasy]

Not a free ball if he can see another red.

[DeanH]

hi,
i was playing match tonight and there was 2 reds left which were not together. I had a free ball from the D, I took the blue, tried to roll in into the middle and it hit the jaw and came between one of the reds and the white.I said to my opponent I think that this is a foul because the blue has came between the red and the white full ball snooker. He said he didn’t think so because he could hit the other red. I gave him 4 points as I wasn’t sure.
What is the rule in this situation when the free ball colour comes between a red and white when there is multiple reds on the table?
I know if it had only been the one red left it was a definite foul and a free ball back to him.


cheers
Ricky

As itsnoteasy says, if he can hit the other red, no foul.
As per your scenario, no Foul as your opponent said he could hit the other red, so he was correct

"can hit" as in the second red was not snookered by the nominated free bale (Blue in your case).

In the case of multiple Reds, each Red is considered individually if they are snookered, if any Red is NOT snookered, no snooker exists; regardless of how many are snookered - if 14 are snookered and 1 is not - no snooker

[Q1st]

If the freeball blue comes to rest such that the next player is snookered by the blue on all the ball that are on, then it is a foul.

[DeanH]

If the freeball blue comes to rest such that the next player is snookered by the blue on all the ball that are on, then it is a foul.

That is true generally except in the situation being discuss where there is another Red, which can be seen and hit so No foul.
In this scenario the Ball On is Reds - multiple Reds. One Ball On is Not snookered so no foul

[Q1st]

You suggest that the other red can be seen and hit and is therefore not a foul.
I disagree, because the other red whilst visible and hittable, if it cannot be hit on both extreme edges because the blue is obstructing then it is by definition snookered. It is therefore a foul.

[DeanH]

You suggest that the other red can be seen and hit and is therefore not a foul.
I disagree, because the other red whilst visible and hittable, if it cannot be hit on both extreme edges because the blue is obstructing then it is by definition snookered. It is therefore a foul.

So are you saying if there are 5 Reds and one is snookered by the nominated Free Ball and four are not, it would be a foul?
Sorry but the scenario is NOT that both Reds are snookered but one Red is Snookered and one Red is NOT snookered (as per definition you recite). Apologies for using the term "hit" as that was used in the original post describing the scenario - by this term I considered the second Red was NOT snookered.
When considering snookers with multiple reds, EACH Red is consider individually - as if it is the ONLY Red on the table - and if ANY Red is NOT snookered - No Foul is called.

Of course IF the second RED is ALSO Snookered and therefore ALL Reds are snookered, then YES a Foul and Free Ball will be called and is an option for the non-offender.

Please see the information here of the first post, and there is a section solely on Multiple Reds.
I have attached the images here as the original links no longer work.
https://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/board/forum/snooker-forums/the-snooker-lounge/9799-free-ball-how-to-judge-if-you-have-one

[Q1st]

Some years ago in a cup match player A committed a foul and the white came to rest in baulk close to brown and yellow and snookered on the last red near pink spot.
Ref called Foul and Free Ball.
Player B nominated Yellow as the Free Ball, sent the Yellow towards the red leaving the white close to the brown.
Player A was left snookered on the red, one edge snookered by the brown and the other edge by the free ball yellow.
The Ref decided that although player B had snookered behind the freeball yellow it was NOT a foul.
Reason being that there were two snookering balls, and since the white ball was the closest to the brown the brown was deemed to be the effective snookering ball.
Do you agree with the decision?

[Q1st]

Should have read : the white was closer to brown than to the yellow, brown was therefore deemed the effective snookering ball.

[DeanH]

Some years ago in a cup match player A committed a foul and the white came to rest in baulk close to brown and yellow and snookered on the last red near pink spot.
Ref called Foul and Free Ball.
Player B nominated Yellow as the Free Ball, sent the Yellow towards the red leaving the white close to the brown.
Player A was left snookered on the red, one edge snookered by the brown and the other edge by the free ball yellow.
The Ref decided that although player B had snookered behind the freeball yellow it was NOT a foul.
Reason being that there were two snookering balls, and since the white ball was the closest to the brown the brown was deemed to be the effective snookering ball.
Do you agree with the decision?

Should have read : the white was closer to brown than to the yellow, brown was therefore deemed the effective snookering ball.

I read it as you meant
Yes - the closest ball to the Cue Ball is considered the Snookering Ball.


Sec 2.17 Snookered
...
(b) If the cue ball is so obstructed from hitting a ball on by more than one ball not on:
(i) the ball nearest to the cue ball is considered to be the effective snookering ball; and
(ii) should more than one obstructing ball be equidistant from the cue ball, all such balls will be considered to be effective snookering balls.
...

[Q1st]

This is therefore an instant where it is possible to snooker behind the freeball without fouling.

[DeanH]

This is therefore an instant where it is possible to snooker behind the freeball without fouling.

No.
(1) In the scenario above, the Free Ball is not the snookering ball (by definition), maybe by position on the table but the other colour closer to the Cue Ball is now the snookering ball - the nominated Free Ball is not the snookering ball - so you are NOT snookering "behind the Free Ball". Maybe a bit pedantic but that is how the rules work. Once there is another ball closer to the Cue Ball, the nominated Free Ball is no longer in consideration. Please do not think like this as you will get confused down the line at some time.
(2) the only time you can snooker behind the nominated free ball is when only the Black and Pink are on the table.

[Q1st]

Thank you for your advice, but I do think like this.
I believe that every player should make the efforts to learn the rules.
I am pleased that in the above scenario, as player B, I did know the rule, as did the Ref, as I had explained it to him only days previously. Player A however was most upset.
It surprises me how often the pros seem not to know the rules, not to mention some of the pundits.

[DeanH]

Thank you for your advice, but I do think like this.
I believe that every player should make the efforts to learn the rules.
I am pleased that in the above scenario, as player B, I did know the rule, as did the Ref, as I had explained it to him only days previously. Player A however was most upset.
It surprises me how often the pros seem not to know the rules, not to mention some of the pundits.

You are so right with this
I assume you already have a copy of the new version of the rules (as of earlier this year)?

[Q1st]

I have seen the latest rules on the WPBSA web site together with explanatory notes on the rules updates.
And I have noticed that the Updates notes on “ball forced off the table” for example, does not appear to agree with the latest rules.
Maybe the Updates need updating.